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uhighfreak
Feb 6, 2004, 4:43 PM
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I am asking your help to find out all the official, legally open areas in Missouri that climbing is allowed and is encouraged to develop. And, as I know, there is alot of info on this site. I have contributed to the site myself. But, I am not sure what the actual policies of many of the sites are and who controls what. And this confusion is part of the problem with climbing in Missouri. Climbing might be tolerated but do we have any legal climbing areas that are developed to benefit climbers and how much is the parks department working to help us as climbers find good areas for us to use for our sport. We have just as much right to climb in public lands as hikers, bikers, horseback riders, and others have in pursuing their activities.
Basically, if the above was confusing, I am trying to find out who runs what and what kind of real, official, productive development is occurring and who is in charge of that.
Again, I think one of the issues in our state is the fact that random people are developing random stuff that they probably do not really have the right to do and parks officials are upset and less willing to work with climbers because of it. I am not saying that the development should not have happened because, if it had not, then there may not be any climbing areas at all in the state, particularly sport climbing. I think if the state climbers get more organized, though, maybe access would come a little easier.
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jer
Feb 7, 2004, 6:08 AM
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Uhigh, do you know of ANY place in the U.S. where climbing development is actually ENCOURAGED? I know of a few spots; generally all private/commercial land where the development is for the benefit of the owner.
There is a minute hint of the climbing in Missouri on this website.
Confusion of land ownership has nothing to do with problems in the state(I admit...that may be PART of the problem in Henley/Jeff City). Just ask anyone who has climbed in the state for any length of time...most know who owns what. 90% of legal areas are owned by the Army Corps of Engineers. I have talked with their offices over the phone and email over the years, have met with numerous rangers, read all their literature, and their policy is that their land is "general recreation" use. At the present time, they have no regulations AGAINST climbing. Pester them and demand a special "climbers only" area, and they just might decide climbing is NOT allowed on their precious land. Focus your efforts on Columbia where the REAL problems are. Leave the already legal lands alone. We do not DESERVE to climb.
Please understand, I am a pretty funny guy, and this is said with much humor in my voice: BOO HOO! Climbing is only TOLERATED everywhere. We are a small user group that doesn't generate ANY income for anyone but ourselves...and a teeny tiny portion of the income of US nat'l parks. Especially in the Show Me State, we are a speck on the radar. Think of it like this: M.U. doesn't sell tickets to their cross country races, but make their income off of football and Basketball. Cross Country runners get no a. respect b.cheerleaders or c. full rides. In the University of life, Uhigh, climbers are cross country runners, just not as skinny.
< We have just as much right to climb in public lands as hikers, bikers, horseback riders, and others have in pursuing their activities.>
Right. So figure out the situation along the Katy trail. You have mentioned before that it is impossible for rock to fall from Andromeda onto the Katy trail. That is sadly; not true. People are stupid...believe me, I've seen it.
If it is TRUE that ALL the rock along the Katy Trail is public land, than get after it! Put a plan together and approach the appropriate people. Be a thinker. How about invisimesh to catch potential rockfall below the most popular routes/crags interspersed invisibly in the trees? Usually when bikers roll by at Andromeda it's for a microsecond anyways. What about a fancy switchback trail up to the crags to avoid scrambling rockfall? How about small signs that say "beware rockfall from above"? Think about the road in Eldorado Canyon! Cars, tourists and runners are directly under that everyday with legions of climbers overhead. Educate the park service! Make it happen!!!
[Basically, if the above was confusing, I am trying to find out who runs what and what kind of real, official, productive development is occurring and who is in charge of that.]
Right now from what I know development is at a standstill. There used to be a group I headed up named BAM (Better Anchors Missouri). We held parties and fundraising events to provide new routes and class up older ones. The point of most "development" is that it is UNOFFICIAL done by anonymous climbers who simply enjoy developing virgin rock. There needs to be no comittee, no "officiality" to it. Find some virgin rock. Climb it. But do it safe, do it right, or all of the sudden there will be some OFFICIAL business with a crowbar...and I don't mean for pulling bolts(remember, he's a funny guy; he's a funny guy).
Which land owners are upset? Do you know? Kaysinger Bluff Owners were upset. The bolts were all removed and signs were put up. So, what else?
I am unaware of any recent conflict. Should "random" people not develop routes? How do you think they got there in the first place? Random people decided they wanted to climb it, and random people did. Missouri development is generally considered a "don't ask, don't tell" situation, especially when it goes on on illegal land. I am proud to say I have never done any development on illegal lands...but if that's all there was, and I had explored all the options (getting legal access) well I'd ...uhhh....I'd... I guess I'd MOVE! Which I did.
You are right. Get organized then. Put your money where your mantle is.
If you can't succesfully open access to ANYTHING in Columbia, head to the Truman shorelines LEGAL Corps Land. There are over 200 routes already developed, with room for 500 more for the patient, adventurous and poison ivy immune.
Jer
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uhighfreak
Feb 7, 2004, 6:48 AM
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Thanks for your response and I did not mean to attack the random development that has created the climbing areas in Missouri. I think what has been done so far is as you say "don't ask, don't tell" and, with it, there is climbing in Missouri. Otherwise, as I said, there might not be any climbing at all in this state. I know that I am on a a very thin line and understand that I do not want to mess up what is already established. So, I am going to take your advice and start small, with the area in Boone County. I figure it is central so that support would come from both Kansas City and St. Louis as well as Springfield and Jefferson City. Also, I live hear and would like to see it reopened. I am supposed to hear back from the Access Fund next week. They are busy working on some other projects. Anyway, as I said, I am just trying to get all the information possible before starting a move.
So, you say that most of the public climbing is on land owned by the Army Corps of Engineers? Well, that is right up my alley with trying to become a civil engineer. Now, I know who to talk to. Also, if anyone knows, are there any state forest lands, city lands, and state park lands that are designated to be climber friendly lands? I know that Johnson's Shut-ins is open to trad climbing when the crowds are low in the shut-ins, Washington State Park is iffy, and Elephant Rocks is bouldering tolerated when the crowds are low as well. But, overall, I am not that familiar with the state resources as a whole and how many "climbable" areas there are in the state. I am going to look at the websites tomorrow to see but I figure I should ask and see what answers I get.
Thanks again jer. any help is more than none and it is greatly appreciated.
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jer
Feb 7, 2004, 3:50 PM
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>>So, you say that most of the public climbing is on land owned by the Army Corps of Engineers? Well, that is right up my alley with trying to become a civil engineer. Now, I know who to talk to.>>>>
I don't think you are getting it bro. The Corps owns NADA, ZILCH of the land you are trying to get open. I don't even know if they own ANY land in
BOCOMO. My advice? Leave them alone. They are generally unaware of climbers. When I have talked to individuals/Rangers at their office, they say we as a user group do not come into conversation at meetings, but that they have no rules against us climbing. We are not a concern, and as someone who has invested thousands of hours of work and money into Corps land climbing, I beg you, leave it well enough alone. Things are glorious right now. Don't screw it up by stirring the pot.
Warsaw, Bump and Grind, Trappers, Quarry, Reeds, Monegaw, and Wenonah are all on Corps land. The climbing is available, the access is open and generally speaking, rescue is a short boat ride or drive away. We do not need special signs, any special consideration, access or respect in Corps Land climbing.
We are a small user group(look how hard it is for you to find people to help) and are unattractive to the corps. They start putting us on their website and flyers, then you get ten times as many local bozos out trying to figure it all out using mom's laundry line and a horseshoe to rappel. Special fishing acces? SURE! they bring in millions in revenue each year. Special access to beaches? OF COURSE, IT's A LAKE! Let climbing be mysterious and behind the scenes, as it's supposed to be. In BOCOMO, however, they need some serious help.
>>> Also, if anyone knows, are there any state forest lands, city lands, and state park lands that are designated to be climber friendly lands?
Capen Park definitely seems to be climber friendly. However, I think if you want to make a climber friendly area available, you would need to prove the desire by more than one to three individuals to climb there...at the same time you don't want to show the park service, et al, that TOO MANY climbers want to use it or it'd put a bad taste in their mouth. My vote? Find out all you can about Andromed a and Wilton, then let's(you, me, AF, other willing locals) put together a plan of what woudl work best. A trail? Signs? Some sort of protection? A signed petition? Small land purchase from the AF? Certain hours/seasons of availibility? There are numerous options...surely more than what I have just listed. The park service needs to know that they have ostricized an entire generation of climbers by not allowing climbing there. They are scared of a hiker biker getting hurt, and maybe this is just; maybe this has happened? My guess is that it came from natural rock fall, not a climber, and they are scared.
>>> I know that Johnson's Shut-ins is open to trad climbing when the crowds are low in the shut-ins, Washington State Park is iffy, and Elephant Rocks is bouldering tolerated when the crowds are low as well. But, overall, I am not that familiar with the state resources as a whole and how many "climbable" areas there are in the state.>>>
Being Climbable depends on each specific climber. What may be "climbable to me may not be climbable to you. Just kidding, I know what you are trying to say. I see that you have the Mo Limestone book...the only areas in there that are not clearly legal are henley and earthquake. Add the ones you have listed above and voila! you have a legal list!
>> I am going to look at the websites tomorrow to see but I figure I should ask and see what answers I get.
Go for it.
>>Thanks again jer. any help is more than none and it is greatly appreciated.
no prob bob...what is your name again?
Jer
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jds100
Feb 7, 2004, 4:26 PM
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My 2 cents: Jer has it nailed, especially as far as central and western Missouri is concerned. Please pay close attention to his advice about NOT contacting the Corps of Engineers. I would say that climbers are much smaller than even a blip on the radar in this state. Raising the profile of climbers and climbing in a relatively unorganized -or disorganized- manner would be a big mistake with long-lasting negative effects. State Parks apparently leave decisions about allowing or disallowing certain activities within a Park up to the discretion of the Park Ranger or manager. Different Parks (and different public lands) have different rules and guidelines. There are only very broad guidelines established at the larger State level, that are modified on a case-by-case, park-by-park basis.
Relative to The Access Fund, yes, I do think it's the best place to start, but I would suggest that you contact them first with your general question of how to determine the access guidelines for the different areas with which you're concerned (i.e. the State, local public lands, Federal lands, private lands, etc.), and then how to approach each different venue for access. I would also counsel that you gather whatever strength of group you could before you approach The Access Fund. They are great folks, and very willing to work with you, but people don't have a realistic sense of how limited their resources are, and usually expect too much. The Access Fund is not designed to do everything for everybody. If you can demonstrate how hard you have already worked, it will be a good indicator of how hard you will work in the future if The Access Fund steps in to help. Don't expect to go to them and say, "Here's my problem; fix it."
The best thing you can do is to network with other climbers in your areas, via the internet, bulletin boards at shops, etc. And, "development" can have significantly different meanings to different people. Guerilla climbing and "development" is selfish and egotistical, and hurts everyone. If you're new to climbing or new to an area, take your time and talk to a lot of people before you think you're sure of who you can relay on for the skills and integrity necessary to correctly develop a climbing destination. The skills include the technical know-how of bolting and cleaning, but also interpersonal skills to be able to negotiate with land managers and owners.
Finally, I agree with Jer: if climbing is going to be a long-term passion for you, the best thing you can do is leave Missouri. Some states just aren't made for it. There is basically no motivation for any level of land managers to accomodate climbers with an investment of public funds.
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freakystyley
Feb 7, 2004, 4:54 PM
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being in Mo - you will appreciate this - "Leave a sleeping dog be"
Don't get me wrong - I appreciate your interest in trying to gain access legally - but still...
I like the "don't ask, don't tell, leave no trace, wear colors to blend in, and place your own pro."
Do that, and you should find a lot to climb. As for the areas listed...I have been on them all at one time or another and have had co. sheriffs and rangers waive to me as they drive by. Don't cause a scene like some of the boobs at the top of wilton drinking and throwing bottles all the time yelling at katy trail users. Park off the road, hike a little, be friendly, haul out some trash, etc. all things that leave a great impression if someone see's you walking off their (friends/neighbors/family/state) property.
Oh Yeah, last I heard, the area we call Andromeda was going for a little over a million.
bottom line - we can climb now. We might not have a ton of bolted routes along the river, but head over to Warsaw. Start asking around and stirring the pot, guess what - those tresspassing tickets might just be a little more common again. :shock:
I just read your profile..
...you are a student at MU - cool, but what are your long term plans? to stay in columbia after graduation? If so, keep soing your homework and good luck. If you are leaving, bear in mind your efforts might do more harm than good. I mean, someone digging all the stuff up and then they bail out. The dust settles and us locals have NO access. thanks.
let us locies know if we can help.
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uhighfreak
Feb 7, 2004, 6:23 PM
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I have seemed to hit a cord that I did not intend. I think that what I am going to do is find out what the actual rules are with climbing here in Boone County and work from there. I find myself being scared to climb because I do not want to get a trespassing ticket when I do not know the rules. I am very analytical person and would like to believe that once I know the real rules, then climbing could be possible at Andromeda and others. I do know who owns the property from a property table at Public Works department but do not intend on contacting them at all. I have contacted the Access Fund to simply gather any info they have on the area from the former regional coordinator of our state. Really, that is all I have done so far. I will not talk to the Army Corp of Engineers because of the negative response to the idea. Overall, I am seeing how much bigger this struggle is to find out the truth about access in Missouri. I apologize for any misconceptions in my intentions and I will not make any more contacts without advice from other climbers. As of right now, I do not think that what I have done has affected the climbing status in Missouri. My approach and intentions are not from the angle that we should be able to climb anywhere and to fight the "machine" that controls everything. On the contrary. I am simply looking for information about the areas and to understand the point of view others are looking at climbing. Anyway, I will keep you up to date on my progress in the quest for knowledge and hope that support will be around for me to get advice on later efforts
Please do not take me as a radical who is going to go flying into a war of words with the land owners and land management. I am not stupid. I realize the huge destructive effects that would cause to all. I simply would like to have some answers on the status of climbing in areas in central Missouri and to know what I am allowed to do. If there were any movement to try to get a place reopened, I would get all the support I could from the climbing gyms in Missouri, this website, and other forums on climbing in the midwest before I ever sent a single letter or asked the Access Fund for help other than what I have asked of them already. But, I think that I am too small of an individual in the climbing community to make that move or to organize a group together to even attempt to try to get access to a closed area. I am simply hoping to find out the reall reason(s) why Andromeda and others are closed along the Katy Trail, relay the information back, and to see what other climbers believe could be a way to maybe get a compromise.
I simply intend of finding out some information right now
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jer
Feb 7, 2004, 6:41 PM
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Right on.
Please keep us updated...even if it's bad news.
Thanks for the thoughts JD and FS.
I gotta disagree though, the patient and well placed climber can enjoy along happy career in the state. Think Springfield. Close to So Ill, Close to Northern Arky, AND the legal missouri areas. But...if I practiced what I preach, I guess I'd still be there huh?
jer
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freakystyley
Feb 7, 2004, 7:11 PM
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yeah yeah - thats all I meant - I don't see this topic as radical or anything - just someone with good intentions/ideas. I just want to make sure homework is done carefully as to not draw attention to the shady areas we climb in -
and most importantly...
given recent climbing related events here in columbia - now might NOT be the best time to research rock climbing...
For now - wait for the snow to melt then head out to capen for a few hours - or make the short drive to Warsaw (fits your TR/sport/legal req.). You might contact the Columbia Climbing club to learn the research they have done on this topic and get you started in the right direction.
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uhighfreak
Feb 7, 2004, 7:22 PM
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My little search of the Department of Natural Resources found some information but none to my particular area. I thought I would let you know anyway:
Areas Climbing and Rappeling is allowed (state parks):
Elephant Rocks State Park (no equipment allowed, bouldering only)
Johnson's Shut-Ins (Day after Labor Day to Memorial Day (permit required
Meramec State Park (573-468-6072) (Permit)
St. Francois State Park (573-358-2173)(Permit)
Lake of the Ozarks State Park (573-348-2694) (Permit)
In short, the climbing areas are few and Washington State Park is not on the list
Army Corps of Engineers has no policy on climbing in their lands, only boating permits and regulations, so have fun as far as I can tell.
I did go to the Katy Trail State Park site and they mention the sections between Rocheport to Jefferson City, Portland to Treloar, and Augusta to St. Charles as the most scenic areas because of the bluffs. This point is disappointing and discouraging to me because that means they are particularly proud of these sections and probably would not be willing to change any policies in these sections. I am going to continue to look up stuff and hopefully, my feelings about the DNR is wrong to some extent, but we will find out out sooner or later
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jer
Feb 7, 2004, 8:14 PM
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"Portland to Treloar"
Methinks you have stumbled across sumfin special.
That strip between Jeff City and Hanibal, namely in Treloar would host the states tallest routes as far as I know; other than Ha Ha Tonka state Park(off limits). Bring a headlamp and a machete.
jer
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freakystyley
Feb 7, 2004, 8:15 PM
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In reply to: ...I did go to the Katy Trail State Park site and they mention the sections between Rocheport to Jefferson City, Portland to Treloar, and Augusta to St. Charles as the most scenic areas because of the bluffs. ....
well - they can be proud of those areas, but the Katy Trail only has 50 feet right of way from center line of the trail as I understand it (I know it is that way thru Columbia on the MKT spur). The bluffs themselves are Private land. This is where the access issues arrise. If it were a state park maybe we could do a little more, but being as some person/org. owns that land - liability, tresspassing, vandalism, etc all come into play when dealing with access. I know those things come onto play on public land too, but there are facilities in place to deal with them (most times).
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uhighfreak
Feb 7, 2004, 9:23 PM
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In reply to: "Portland to Treloar" Methinks you have stumbled across sumfin special. jer
I am confused. Is that sarcasm or you really think I have found something? I mean I am only trying to find out stuff and I do not need people to be making fun of what I post because they have already explored this area. If you have information for me about stuff, let me know. I mean I am not hurting anyone and I have a hard time understanding why someone would insult my efforts just because they already know about it. IF I had known that everyone had known about the information I posted, I probably would not have posted it at all. But, because no one has really given me the info they know, I must assume that what I find out that seems to me as new information should be posted to let everyone know. I hope that you either were joking or you really think this is some type of "find". I have never visited the area around Treloar so I thought that I would post what I found. Please don't patronize me if that was what you were attempting because if my efforts are in vain or are not wanted at all, then come out and say it and I will stop posting what I find out and keep it to myself like most of the members from Missouri do.
If you really think that the area between Treloar and Portland is something to explore, then when the snow melts, I will go ride the trail and/or drive my car around the area and see what it is all about. But, if your statement was some type of joke, then I do not need it or appreciate it. Come out and say you do not like my efforts and I will stop posting all together.
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freakystyley
Feb 7, 2004, 11:53 PM
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I think he meant it is just not developed - well known, but no common lines. all would be trad at this point is my guess. I have seen the bluffs and the lure is the height. But, like all bluffs in MO - poison ivy/sumac, difficult approaches, bugs in summer, land owners, etc all come into play.
Because the lines are not developed or climbed frequently they would be very dirty so wear a helmet or clean it up on rap if you find something you like.
I guess for the ones in the climbing scene in mid mo - there is a lot to climb (hell, we have 2 gear shops!). it is just not out in the open like a lot of other areas. And not developed as sport. Bolts leave a trace on private land - ie, draw attention. Get some pro and climb some MO cracks.
climbing in MO is more based on personal ethics and morals as far as tresspassing, etc. So - if you are adventurous, have fun. if not, go to Capen.
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jer
Feb 8, 2004, 12:00 AM
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In reply to: I am confused. Is that sarcasm or you really think I have found something? I mean I am only trying to find out stuff and I do not need people to be making fun of what I post because they have already explored this area. If you have information for me about stuff, let me know. I mean I am not hurting anyone and I have a hard time understanding why someone would insult my efforts just because they already know about it. IF I had known that everyone had known about the information I posted, I probably would not have posted it at all. But, because no one has really given me the info they know, I must assume that what I find out that seems to me as new information should be posted to let everyone know. I hope that you either were joking or you really think this is some type of "find". I have never visited the area around Treloar so I thought that I would post what I found. Please don't patronize me if that was what you were attempting because if my efforts are in vain or are not wanted at all, then come out and say it and I will stop posting what I find out and keep it to myself like most of the members from Missouri do.
Uhigh, Uhigh, Uhigh. R U high? Take a deep breath. I'll explain for the sake of quieting your fears. I wasn't being sarcastic. A better word may be "converstaional" or possibly "reminescent".
Treloar IS quite a "find. I found it many years ago when doing some research looking for the tallest rocks in Missouri. Among a group of friends we had arial photos, all sorts of topos, and notes from calls made around the state. We packed up the rig and headed out. Among many other things we found, the bluff line running east - west near Treloar were the most impressive(look for a 200 foot dihedral...have at it). Here's the deal. They have the same positioning as Andromeda and Wilton; directly above the Katy trail, which in turn is directly above a road(more like wilton). At the top is private property. At the base is some of the nastiest, most horrendous bushwacking I have ever seen; and I have seen plenty, you should see my shins! So, we marked it up as "interesting", but definitely not a priority. If it has the same problems as the afformentioned areas, it wasn't worth our time. Plus, if I was gonna drive that far from KC for virgin rock climbing, I would just continue on to Arkansas.
So relax, I was just saying that you found something...interesting. It was the first time I had heard Treloar mentioned since...maybe 1996? And, just so we're clear, are you looking for places to develop NEW climbing? Or just trying to gain access/permission to what's already developed?
In reply to: If you really think that the area between Treloar and Portland is something to explore, then when the snow melts, I will go ride the trail and/or drive my car around the area and see what it is all about. But, if your statement was some type of joke, then I do not need it or appreciate it. Come out and say you do not like my efforts and I will stop posting all together.
I think checking it out would prove entertaining. If you decide to develop routes here, be prepared for reprocusions...or maybe you'll find out that it's cool to climb there. I have been surprised before. So yes...in a sense...maybe my statement was a joke, definitely not aimed at you, just in response. Don't feel like I don't appreciate your efforts. Re-read my posts, I am your biggest supporter, your Uhighness. ;)
Jer
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uhighfreak
Feb 8, 2004, 12:26 AM
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Alright, here is a cool sight that my professor told me about. It allows you to create maps from across the state by city or county etc. Some people may find this very useful and others may not. Here it is anyway.
http://maproom.missouri.edu/
It is headed by CARES and the Department of Agriculture on campus. I thought it was pretty awesome. It has aerials that you can zoom in on pretty well. Check it out and let me know what you think. Also, topos are available too but the system is updating and you may not have access to the maps yet. There is also some features for the United States but I have not explored them yet. By the way, jer, sorry just trying to see where you were coming from with the statement
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uhighfreak
Feb 8, 2004, 12:31 AM
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Alright, here is a cool sight that my professor told me about. It allows you to create maps from across the state by city or county etc. Some people may find this very useful and others may not. Here it is anyway.
http://maproom.missouri.edu/
It is headed by CARES and the Department of Agriculture on campus. I thought it was pretty awesome. It is not topo or I have not found that feature yet but it has aerials that you can zoom in on pretty well. Check it out and let me know what you think
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jer
Feb 9, 2004, 8:59 PM
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uhigh;
here is a conversation from a couple years ago.
Scroll to the bottom for info on the areas you are looking at.
http://camm.mu.org/cwiki.py?page=LochNessTeaPlungeDiscussion
good luck!
jer
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fischer
Feb 10, 2004, 4:08 AM
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Hi Uhigh,
I just graduated from Mizzou and have climbed in Columbia for the past 6 years, so here is my 2 cents. Like Jeremy and Freaky said, access is a touchy subject. I was president of the Mizzou Climbing Club for a few years and have experienced your frustration with the situation. It seems the Access Fund, like the DNR has bigger fish to fry in terms of user groups. What I mean by that is the Missouri DNR is more concerned with its most important ($) user groups (conservation department)=hunting and fishing; just like the access fund is most concerned with its most important (vocal) user groups in California, Las Vegas, Colorado, and the East. I have written the Access Fund about our problems, was on the board of CAMM, have tried to get in contact with Barry, and talked to everyone in the community about access. It seems to me the we are dealing with two problems.
1. external access problems (landowners, state dnr, ect.
2. internal motivation problems
You seem very passionate about legal access, Uhigh. Unfortunately most climbers in columbia do not share your enthusiasm. A couple of years ago the Climbing Club had almost 90 members. Of these we had a core group of around 30 that actually climbed. Of these 30 maybe 15 knew about the AF or the routes at Wilton and Andromeda. Most people just tr at Capen on tuesday, those that do climb at the river usually do so in stealth.
I don't think access is as bad as people make it out to be. I have talked to the farmer at Andromeda and he granted me permission to cross his land. I have been kicked out of Wilton once by the sheriff (due to our own newbie ignorance of climbing with a large, loud party of 6) I have been kicked out of Earthquake once by rednecks playing paintball and drinking. I have also continued to climb at these places with a little more common sense and a lower profile. Don't park close to the trail at Wilton and pull completely off the road so the farmer can get by. Nicely ask the landowners for permission personally and you would be surprised where you can climb. Join the Mizzou Climbing Club if you haven't already. The club is amazing and will help you get alot of experience and road trips funded by Mizzou.
If you do try to convince the state of Missouri to chance some of its policies (Katy Trail) it might be a good idea to develop a portfolio of what other states like Nevada and Arkansas have done by including climbing as a recreation destination in their tourism brochoures/travel ads in Climbing, Outside, Natl. Geographic Adventure, Rockclimbing.com, ect. and present this information along with Access Fund coordination to help state your case that climbing could be wonderful for Missouri tourism (what else do we have to offer?) And could help the state substantially in the economic $$$$ department.
Good luck Uhigh, hopefully we can make something happen. Until then get strong in the gym or go out to Earthquake. I will be in town at soon as the thermometer hits 45F. See ya
Ryan Fischer
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jer
Feb 10, 2004, 11:40 PM
Post #20 of 33
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Registered: Sep 26, 2000
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Thanks fischer.
That's some super helpful stuff.
I agree, I have never let the access problems thwart my climbing in Columbia, I just have adapted. Low profile goes a long way. I have never had any trouble with farmers and/or rangers.
Jer
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freakystyley
Feb 16, 2004, 1:18 AM
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Registered: Aug 19, 2003
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Exactly. thanks Ficher. Like I wrote, there is a LOT to climbing in central MO. I have been here for about 10yrs...and have this to reiterate. Be polite, ask permission (keep in mind, one person asking to use the land does not mean everyone can. this is why some of us still have no worries about access and others wonder why areas are closed :wink: and you never get a straight answer about access. Ask 5 people where they climb, you get 5 diff areas. ), use common sense/stealth - etc. Join the club if you want - I never have, but then again, how can you be stealthy and bring a club? there are pro's and con's - your call.
in fact, you just might catch me at Henley this week - 50* and sunny - BOO YA!! nothing like a south facing bluff in MO winter!
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jer
Feb 16, 2004, 1:28 AM
Post #22 of 33
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freakystyley,
I have climbed in Missouri for exactly ten years also(with a four year hiatus in Tucson, Az.). Have we ever met?
Jer(Jeremy Collins, CMSU 94-95, Blue Springs/Lee's Summit, 2000-03)
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freakystyley
Feb 16, 2004, 1:40 AM
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not sure Jer - ever seen a big guy (6'3", 220#) with a shaved head and wife along to clean and 1.5 yr old kid screaming at the belay? say hi next time!
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jer
Feb 16, 2004, 4:35 PM
Post #24 of 33
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Registered: Sep 26, 2000
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Nope. I think I'd remember a climber with THOSE stats! :D
I'd say hi...but...I'm in denver now....BOO HOO...I miss the Choss...
Jer
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jds100
Feb 16, 2004, 5:33 PM
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Registered: Aug 5, 2001
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I do think motivation is a real problem when it comes to implementing a coordinated plan of action. Good luck. In my experience, that is the most difficult element of resolving a problem of local climbng access. May I suggest that you not be too hard on The Access Fund, too. You might have the misconception, as many do, that The Access Fund has almost-limitless resources. They don't. Attorneys work without compensation. There are very few paid positions at the Fund, and those folks could likely be earning much more elsewhere. Do you know who your local or regional Access Fund Coordinator is? That would be a start, if there even is one in place. If you think the Fund is catering to the places where the donations come from, you should probably communicate quite a bit more with them, and find out from where and how much actually comes in. Their books are open, as a non-profit organization.
As to the Katy Trail, Jer may know more about this, but I think much if not most of the land that borders the Trail is owned privately, and would involve hundreds or thousands of contacts with private land owners to gain access. You'd have to convince them that they will not be at risk for liability from people who use their land. Good luck on that one. Even many State and local governments aren't clear on that issue for public land use as it pertains to activities that they perceive as risky. Yes, there is an obvious contradiction in their allowance of hunting, swimming, water skiing, boating, etc., but as long as they hold all the cards, any effort at changing their minds absolutely has to avoid an tone of self-righteousness and indignance. What seems obvious to you is just another opportunity for them to say, "No." And, yes, I'm aware that many land managers are freindly and open to expanding land use, but they have layers of management to convince, too, and in times of less and less funding, it's always going to be easier to avoid the expense involved with the procedures for changing the land use guidelines.
And, if anyone thinks climbing is going to add to Missouri's profile as a tourism destination, just ask yourself how much climbers are going to spend when they come here. Be realistic. Even in Colorado and California, and other states with significant climbing destinations, climbing is barely a blip on the tourism radar. Climbers as a group are hardly an attraction, and not worth the money spent to attract them.
It sounds like you're getting good advice about the local, mostly private areas. Keep a low and friendly profile. Good luck.
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