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solomonr605
Feb 12, 2004, 5:39 AM
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i know you can't learn to climb from a book (or a forum), but does anyone have any advice for a fairly hard sport climber ( can onsight .11a) who wants to get into trad? i live in Portland, OR, so if anyone knows about good instructers, i would like to hear about that too.
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cutiger
Feb 12, 2004, 6:44 AM
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I'm in the same boat you are....but what I have started doing is going out and climbing like usual on toprope, but I take a set of nuts and hexes and I practice placing them in the rock to get a feel. Also when you do this you can attach a sling to the piece and weight it to get a good feel for what are good placements and what aren't. Start off with the passive pro and once you get good with that learn the cams and stuff. They also say it is good to get out and do some aid climbing. Definitely don't go out and lead something until you have had proper instruction, as there is a lot more to it than just putting it in the wall. Happy climbing and learning!
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maculated
Feb 12, 2004, 6:53 AM
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Check the beginners forum, there's a thread there, too.
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goodwill
Feb 12, 2004, 9:20 AM
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I'm pretty sure this has been covered in many threads so far, but for my $0.02... (and I should say as a disclaimer that I'm just learning to lead myself, so I'm still a newb at this, but these have been my experiences so far.) I think one good way to get a feel for trad climbing is if you can follow a pretty experienced leader a bunch of times before you start placing your own pro. I guess that's not always an option, but I know it has been helpful to me. When you do follow someone else, get used to really examining each piece before you remove it. As far as books go, I highly recommend Climbing Anchors and its sequel More Climbing Anchors by John Long. Okay, I haven't read the second one, but I just finished the first one, and it's pretty thorough. I plan to read the second book soon. They are a bit old, and the first book mostly neglects the usage of cordalettes, but most of the information is just as valid now as it was ten years ago. Of course, there's no substitute for real experience, but I always like to reinforce experience with knowledge, to understand things in theory and in practice. As for not jumping on lead immediately... well, you have to start somewhere. It's definitely good to have some kind of experience with trad (toproping and placing pro, following someone else, etc) before you start leading. But I don't think it's absolutely essential, as long as you start leading with really easy stuff -- well below your level, so there's virtually no chance of a fall. You probably don't want to fall on a trad lead to "test" how good your gear placements are until you've been doing it for a good while. (I had this conversation with my climbing partner, who's been teaching me to lead, and soon after that I saw a thread on this site about the same thing.) Again, just my two cents. Will
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overlord
Feb 12, 2004, 12:16 PM
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generally, there are two good ways: 1. hire a guide or instructor and learn from them 2. get an experienced partner to hook up with and lčearn from him you can also learn by yourself, but the probability of error will be bigger, wich is no good.
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deleted
Deleted
Feb 12, 2004, 3:28 PM
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are you smart? a quick learner? perhaps a [i:4ccac9f85e]learn by doing [/i:4ccac9f85e]person? then my suggestion would be to: 1. read all the books to get a general idea of how it's done, then 2. hook up with an experienced leader -- someone you can trust -- and clean 50-100 lines or so, and 3. use the money you would have shelled out for a guide to keep yer leader well supplied with beer. you should be good to go on the easier routes after that. of course, getting your head together ... that's a different thread altogether. :wink:
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phyreman
Feb 12, 2004, 4:29 PM
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As many other people will tell you: Follow, Follow, Follow. I'm fairly new to leading myslef but I've followed more experianced climbers for a couple years. I'd also try setting a TR and placing gear on the way up and weighting it to see how it goes.
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scubasnyder
Feb 12, 2004, 4:36 PM
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If you search for the answer in other forums im sure you will find what your looking for.
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madmax
Feb 12, 2004, 4:37 PM
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If you're onsighting 5.11, then get a rack and climb a 5.6. You won't be too gripped and you chances of falling a minimal. I'm sure plenty of people will disagree with this method (that's so dangerous!), but you'll learn the quickest.
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ricardol
Feb 12, 2004, 4:47 PM
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how i learned trad: 1 - read a book 2 - clean a route 3 - buy a rack, tie in, and climb .. .. though i suggest you be fairly confident in what you're doing -- dont end up dead. -- ricardo
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fourdeadpresidents
Feb 12, 2004, 5:32 PM
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My brother in law taught me the same way he was taught in a nols course. Fisrt he handed me his full rack 2 full sets of nuts, set of camalots and tcu's I started by building anchores but while still on the ground once he deamed they where suitable he would would take away the piece's I just used and I would build another until I had exhausted all usable pro. We contiued this method in three different locations until both he and I felt confident in my placements. We then found a nice 5.7 crack (choose your own limitations) about 40 ft. vertical inwhich I lead and was instructed to place as much pro a possible. He then seconded the climb which had bolted anchores visualy inspecting each placement letting me know its holdablility. We continued this until my arms no longer worked. But the mentod seemed to work well for me.
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lstockett
Feb 12, 2004, 6:07 PM
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I agree with all of the above, especially the book recommendations. Another thing you could do is attend the Red Rocks Rendezvous. They're going to offer clinics on gear placement and trad climbing. http://www.mgear.com/...nts/RedRockIntro.asp
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vegastradguy
Feb 12, 2004, 6:23 PM
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I did the same thing Ricardo did. If you're somewhat comfy with the gear, go lead a 5.5-5.6 that you've climbed before. Or something you'd solo. That way the climbing won't be your focus and you can concentrate on the rest of the stuff. of course, its worth noting that aside from placing pro is learning to keep rope drag down. this is definitely a challenge for the new leader...it was my biggest problem on my first few routes. understanding natural anchor principles is also essential. the RRR will be a great place to learn all of this if you're able to come.
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tedc
Feb 12, 2004, 6:33 PM
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I learned (I am still and always learning) without the benefit (or drawbacks) of following an experienced leader. Lots of reading and research and THINKING. I made mistakes. I shudder at some of the things I used to do. But I'm still alive and progressing. Don't take anything for granted. Learn from your mistakes. Don't make BIG mistakes.
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trad_mike
Feb 12, 2004, 7:32 PM
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Follow alot of pitches.
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oldrkr
Feb 12, 2004, 9:08 PM
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Back In the Dawn of Time, after fire was discovered and the wheel invented, but before Friends, rock gyms, rent a guides and rent an instructor. Before long lines at the crags, bolts, sticky rubber and shiny new engineered gear by the ton. When Goldline was becoming extinct as Kermantle stomped the last breaths out of it. Before there were shelves full of instruction books on every possible aspect of climbing. There were some young Colorado lads, watching an old grizzled hardman doing Eldo Canyon before every line had a name and a number on it. They decided that it really looked fun. Over several beers, half a bottle of Wild Turkey and some smoke, he shared some wisdom about what to do and not to do. Showed them some nuts and some homemade garage gear, placed a few in a crack for a demo on placements and anchors, then walked away saying be smart and take your time cause you can die if you are stupid. That was the instruction that I received when the rock first attracted me. 35 years later I will say that is easier, safer and simpler if you read up on whatever interest you. Take a course, second an experienced leader, hire an instructor or guide if you have the resources to do so. But, you can do it without all of that if you choose. If you onsight .11a pick a .3 -.6 that you are familiar with, and can do blindfolded. Take your time and place your pro (assuming you understand the principles behind it) inspect each thoroughly. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Or set up a TR so you can take small falls on each of your placements and see how they react to the load angles, what makes a good placement and a bad one, do laps till your arms fall off, then come back another day and do some more. There are a number of climbers out there that learned with out all of the resources currently available to you. There are a lot of us who are probably lucky that our learning mistakes didnt do us serious harm. Regardless of which route you choose, learn to place bomber anchors and climb smart/safe. I looked real quick at what they are offering at RRR, sounds like a good start if you can swing it.
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bustinmins
Feb 12, 2004, 10:47 PM
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In reply to: are you smart? a quick learner? perhaps a learn by doing person? then my suggestion would be to: 1. read all the books to get a general idea of how it's done, then 2. hook up with an experienced leader -- someone you can trust -- and clean 50-100 lines or so, and 3. use the money you would have shelled out for a guide to keep yer leader well supplied with beer. you should be good to go on the easier routes after that. of course, getting your head together ... that's a different thread altogether. :wink: I'll second what GEO said!
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coylec
Feb 12, 2004, 11:52 PM
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As I wrote earlier about my first lead fall, its best to be very comfortable with your gear.
In reply to: As many other people will tell you: Follow, Follow, Follow. I'm fairly new to leading myslef but I've followed more experianced climbers for a couple years. I'd also try setting a TR and placing gear on the way up and weighting it to see how it goes. This is probably the best advice -- follow as much as possible. Before you clean the piece, answer these questions: (1) would this piece have held a fall? (2) if this piece failed, would the piece i just cleaned catch me? what would the result be (ledge, ground, air?) (3) how could you do this better? (different piece, different placement) Another tactic is playing by aiding with your gear. You don't even need fancy stuff, just attach it to yourself and bounce test . I'd advocate doing this very low, but whatever you are comfortable falling. Bounce testing, btw, is being attached to the piece and bouncing to see if its really a good piece. Advice: do not bounce test your cams. for those, just use body weight. if it holds that, it should hold much more. [if you read my post, you'll know the mistake i made was traversing too far to the right -- the fall turned the cam, which of course came out]. i didn't take my own advice on the cams, and they didn't work! since then, i have body weighted my cams ... and haven't had a problem since and (though I've had a fall on one).
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nealric
Feb 21, 2004, 3:16 AM
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How I learned to trad: 1. Read some books 2. Bought a rack 3. Probably almost got myself killed :) My first trad lead was a first ascent- that was probably not the best of ideas :) You could do it that way- I definetly learned fast + it was cheap an easy. Probaby a more sane solo way is to do (clean) aid climbs on top rope. You will pretty quick what works and what dosent. I still think books were a pretty useful tool. I have definetly sycessfully used techiniqes I just read in a book. I think if I had to do it all over again, I would have done some psudo leads on top rope and some clean aid first. Whatever you do dont waste money on a guide unless you are made of money- the price of a day of guiding is enough to get your rack started :)
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