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markguycan
Feb 12, 2004, 6:13 AM
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any recommendation on the best and/or most affordable hand drill vs power drill?
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mungeclimber
Feb 12, 2004, 7:19 AM
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Roc Peckers which I don't think are made any more have a short handle so it doesn't push you away from the wall as much.
The alternative is to saw off the end of the bit.
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deleted
Deleted
Feb 12, 2004, 3:16 PM
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heck, pretty much [i:6f15f301ba]any[/i:6f15f301ba] hand drill is gonna' be less than a power drill. :lol:
pika makes (or [i:6f15f301ba]made[/i:6f15f301ba], i dunno; they're on shaky corporate ground right now) some good stuff. and you can't go wrong with petzl.
good to see there's still folks out there going for the hand drill and keepin' it real. power drills are fer girls.
*no offense, ladies*
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shorty
Feb 12, 2004, 3:57 PM
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In reply to: good to see there's still folks out there going for the hand drill and keepin' it real. power drills are fer girls. *no offense, ladies*
The Bosch and I are definitely going to play in a different sandbox.
I like the pika drill, as it uses the same SDS bits as *ahem* MR. Bosch. It's a nice backup if the batteries are gone.
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lazide
Feb 12, 2004, 4:03 PM
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Unfortunately Hurricane mtn works has gone out of business, and no one seems to carry the drills anymore. (believe me, I have looked around!)
I try to avoid Pika, as generally anything from them is total CRAP. Petzl seems like the most likely thing, but I have heard the Roc pecker is pretty light weight and won't hold up to too much heavy use.
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jer
Feb 12, 2004, 4:09 PM
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I have tried others, and my Pika is holding on strong.
Back up the connection tube for the allen wrench with some duct tape.
My buddy broke his cable somehow...if this happens send it back quick, or swage it. I borrowed his once and simply used some skinny cord instead.
I use a battery powered hand drill ;) where it's legal to, but it doesn't make me quite as strong as my hand drill. Seriously, the should have blocks at the gyms to hand drill on. Talk about pumped!
I don't like the look of size/material/quality of the handle on the petzl...but I haven't tried it.
Jer
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dingus
Feb 12, 2004, 4:23 PM
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I like my pecker. It gets the job done.
Nice handle. Good wrist keeper leash. A little hole in the rubber handle to store a drill bit when packing. Collette (sp?) bit lock (no freaking set screws or tools required to change a bit), just like on a bosch. Takes the same bits as the power drill. Which, for 3/8" bit length means you lose the advantage of the "shortness" of the handle. The damn drill bit is too long but I haven't found any shorter ones. But at what under 50 bucks it was a helluva buy on top of that.
DMT
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scubasnyder
Feb 12, 2004, 4:30 PM
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the petzl roc pec is nice
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deleted
Deleted
Feb 12, 2004, 5:13 PM
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[quote:4983f3debc="shorty"]
/smooths skirt over knees/
The Bosch and I are definitely going to play in a different sandbox.[/quote:4983f3debc]
hahaha! i [i:4983f3debc]knew[/i:4983f3debc] that would draw you out, hoser!
bite me. :lol:
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brianinslc
Feb 12, 2004, 6:22 PM
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In reply to: I like my pecker. It gets the job done.
I don't think I want to, ahem, touch that one...
In reply to: The damn drill bit is too long but I haven't found any shorter ones.
Try REI. For a search (in case the below link doesn't work) try "Petzl 10mm".
http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=47612285&parent_category_rn=4500708
These are 4" drills. And, in the nice 10mm size, which, after you use them awhile, will grind down to 3/8". More useful life...and, seats a 3/8 powerbolt just fine (as the cone is bigger than 10mm anyhoo).
You can cut down a regular 6" drill, but, the bottom of the shaft is a tad large and you lose the carbon insert. For soft rock, though, they work great (I've used mine in the sandstone of Zion, perfecto).
That 4" bit really snugs in nice in the handle. Small package. Next to the definition of "emergency bolt kit" in the dictionary, is a picture of a Petzl roc pecker with a short drill bit nested in...(nice that the 1/4" and 5/16" SDS bits come in the shorter lengths too, and, in combo with an aluminum hanger and a 1/4" Hilti stud bolt, that's a lightweight see ya later bail package).
Brian in SLC
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climbbaja
Feb 12, 2004, 7:18 PM
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In reply to: And, in the nice 10mm size, which, after you use them awhile, will grind down to 3/8". More useful life...and, seats a 3/8 powerbolt just fine (as the cone is bigger than 10mm anyhoo). |
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brianinslc
Feb 12, 2004, 7:59 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: And, in the nice 10mm size, which, after you use them awhile, will grind down to 3/8". More useful life...and, seats a 3/8 powerbolt just fine (as the cone is bigger than 10mm anyhoo). Please do not follow that dangerous advice. Never use a larger drill for an expansion type bolt. 10mm is larger than 3/8". Additionally, hand drilling will tend to make a larger diameter hole than power drilling.
What's dangerous about it? Never is a pretty long time.
10mm = .3937 inches.
3/8" = .375 inches.
Cone on a typical Power bolt measures over .400 inches (I recall measuring a bunch and I think I was gettin' .404"). The cone gets smashed, going into the hole so, adapts to whatever the hole diameter is. On hard rock, in tight holes, I sometimes "smush" the cone to get it into the hole without havin' to beat the crud out of it. Especially in quartzite, a 10mm hole is pretty nice as its easy to drive the shaft of the bolt right thru a cone in a tight hole.
How is the difference in .0187 inch going to make any appreciable or measureable difference??
The first hole you drill, that 10mm drill bit will wear in diameter. Doesn't take long for the carbon insert, especially in harder rock, to wear pretty quickly. Will be below 10mm in no time.
I'd argue that a looser than tighter hole is better, as you need space for the sleeve to fit over the cone. If the cone is smashed into the bolt, you get a spinner. The key for an expansion bolt to work well, I think, is that the cone needs to engage the side wall of the hole, and the sleeve needs to fit over the cone and tighten (which happens when the cone stays put, and the bolt can turn).
We're not talkin' about drilling a 1/2" hole for a 3/8" bolt. Its a very small difference in diameter.
If you can torque the bolt down (to spec, of course) and an expansion bolts sets, then what's the issue? Not effecting tensile strength or shear.
Brian in SLC
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shorty
Feb 13, 2004, 1:50 AM
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The topic has changed somewhat from hand vs. power drill, but I'll throw in a comment from the peanut gallery about diameters. This is based on my experience with both Bosch and Pika in granite (over 400 bolts within the last 3 years).
Virtually all of our bolts are Fixe, and drill bits are usually Bosch or Petzl. Last year, in a desperate moment for more bolts when it seemed everyone was out of 3/8", the Fixe rep suggested we try some 10mm hardware he had in stock. Over time we eventually confused sizes and placed 10mm bolts in 3/8" holes, and 3/8" bolts in 10mm holes.
I can attest that pounding a 10mm x 95mm double wedge Fixe bolt into a 3/8" hole (especially with an old bit) can test the patience of a saint and bring about the cursing of a sailor. This is a very tight fit.
I can also state that trying to tighten a 3/8" x 2.5" single wedge Fixe bolt in a 10mm hole (especially with a new bit) has its own challenges. Like trying desperately to get the bolt to stop spinning and to engage the expansion wedge.
Bottom line -- they both worked and have held falls without problems, but it has been best for us to match bit and bolt sizes. It's faster and much less hassle.
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climbbaja
Feb 13, 2004, 7:46 AM
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In reply to: brianinslc writes: Cone on a typical Power bolt measures over .400 inches (I recall measuring a bunch and I think I was gettin' .404").
Yes, I get figures of .400" to .404" as well, however that is on the slotted and compressible flange of the cone. Measuring the adjacent solid part of the cone yields a substantially smaller diameter, .366" to .370" (smaller than 3/8"). The slotted end flange on the cone is designed to secure the bolt with compression to provide resistance until the bolt is torqued. The slots interfere with the structural integrity and were not designed to provide primary load bearing strength.
In reply to: brianinslc writes: The first hole you drill, that 10mm drill bit will wear in diameter. Doesn't take long for the carbon insert, especially in harder rock, to wear pretty quickly. Will be below 10mm in no time.
I agree with that, only your first dozen holes with that bit will be too big (and the first dozen bolts not installed to specification, hence, potentially dangerous).
In reply to: brianinslc writes: How is the difference in .0187 inch going to make any appreciable or measureable difference??
The engineers at Powers (formerly Rawl), have listed installation specs. Are you saying that they are wrong? You might also check on the standards set by the ASTM/ANSI. Somehow, I think they will say the 3/8" Power-Bolt goes in a 3/8" hole and "NEVER" in a 10mm hole.
Again, I submit that you are providing technical misinformation which could result in a dangerous condition. Particularly if someone accepted your advice and installed a 3/8"bolt on medium-soft rock with a 10mm bit (or a wobbly hand drill on hard rock). If you disagree, then please post a link to one official document which says 3/8" Power-Bolts should be placed in 10mm holes, or even that the holes should be larger than the installation specs call for. If you can't back up your suppositions, then perhaps, in the interest of safety, we should each remove our posts referring to 3/8" bolts in 10mm holes.
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asandh
Feb 13, 2004, 8:54 AM
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:(
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brianinslc
Feb 13, 2004, 4:56 PM
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In reply to: To brianinslc -- I have to agree totally with climbbaja. If you don't know how to follow manufacturers specs you have no business installing bolts. The cone on a Power bolt is not designed to be pulled entirely in to the sleeve. If the hole is drilled too large you will NOT get the proper compression against the sidewall of the hole and pull out strength is greatly diminished when the sleeve expands. Also as the bolt screws all the way to the end of the cone (the part with the cuts in it) this end is supposed to re-expand against the hole also. This too will be compromised if the hole is too large. If you can't do it right give your gear to someone who can.
I'm pretty familiar with the manufactoring specs. I realize that we're not exactly installing expansion bolts into certain types of concrete, are we? Show me the powers guide to installation of expansion bolts for rock climbing. Yeah, there ain't one.
Show me your data whereby, if I can get the proper installation torque on a Powers expansion bolt in a hole drilled by a 10mm drill bit, that I've reduced the pull out strength, to back up your statement of "greatly diminished". Yeah? You have no data? Ok, neither do I...
Rock is much more variable than the concrete testing that's done for the specs concerning installation of expansion bolts.
With a power drill in rock, you don't know what you have at the bottom of that hole for the cone to bite into. Might be bell shaped. Very common for a drill bit to overspin and pick up harder rock bits, which bore the hole to a bigger diameter (especially if you don't routinely stop and clean out the hole a bunch prior to boring to full depth). Now, that's something I have measured (driveway rock, crack in half, measure diameter and look at cone seating).
I'd make the arguement that a slowly drilled hole, done by hand, more often than not in the bottom of the hole where the cone bites, is more consistantly closer to the "proper" diameter than a power drill. I get way more "spinners" with a power drill than I ever have by hand, especially in softer rock. Of course I have more data points from power drilling too.
How do you ever know that you're gettin' "proper compression" with an expansion bolt even using a 3/8" drill bit? Eh? Have you got test data for the rock type you're drilling and filling? Or, do you snug down the bolt and hope for the best? That's all anyone is doing.
My argument still is that 10mm versus 3/8" drill bit doesn't matter for 3/8" expansion bolts. Lets get some data to back up either for or against.
The minute you drill a phemtoinch with any bit, it wears down. How many 3/8" drill bits have you measured? Are they 3/8" new? After one hole how big are they?
Expansion bolts aren't that finicky. They could care less what the absolute hole diameter is. As long as they seat to the proper installation torque, what else matters? There's enough variation in drill bit diameter (cutting surface across the carbide insert) among different drill makers (diff between Dewalt, Bosch, and Hilti bits, measure them new then cut a few holes with them) that the cones on an expansion bolt have to be able to account for diffferences in hole diameters.
In hard rock, I've been unable to seat 10mm studs in 3/8" holes...
Brian in SLC
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asandh
Feb 13, 2004, 5:16 PM
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:(
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brianinslc
Feb 13, 2004, 6:10 PM
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In reply to: To brianinslc: If you are not even bothering to use the proper size drill bit, I doubt you are really using a torque wrench either. If you are, the false reading on the torque wrench is coming from the end of the expansion sleeve butting against the groove in the cone, just before it flares out at the tip, and not from expansion against the side wall of an over sized hole. Powers installation specs call for a 3/8 bit with tolerances that do not exceed ANSI Standard B212.15. Even with a 3/8 bit you are not supposed to use it forever. If you can't afford a new bit every 12 to 15 holes ask for donations. Here is the Powers web site. Why don't you contact them and ask them. If they say its ok to use a 10 mm bit then we'll shut up. http://www.powers.aus.as/us/
Yeah, placed a quick call to Austraila...they said, "yer doin' what with our bolts? Placing them for rock climbing? We can't recommend that".
So, I guess YOU should stop climbing on all power bolts, 'cause they aren't meant to be used for rock climbing...
You know, according to Powers, the Power-bolt is "ideal for applications such as mounting machinery...".
I've used a torque wrench. I've never seen anyone use them installing any type of bolt in the field. Have you? I don't use one "in the field" either. No one does.
I seriously doubt, that out of the jillions of bolts in service, that ANY one who places them, is mikin' their drill bits after drilling a hole. Have you EVER seen anyone measure their drill bits whilst installing bolts? Have you? I have, but, way after the deed is done.
Do you know what the tolerances are for a 3/8" drill bit? It ain't .375... I doubt hardly anybody that installs bolts has read the ANSI.
Have you ever seen or produced a cross section of rock to understand how all this really works? You can read all the manuals and specs you want. Seein' is believing.
Now come on, convince me. Gimme something more than "call Powers". We don't even come close to meeting minimum margins of safety for climbing hardware. No way folks who produce masonry drills or expansion bolts for use in industrial applications are going to recommend that we use their hardware for rock climbing.
You do bring up a good point, though, that folks ought to cycle out their old bits instead of keep resharpening them until the insert falls out... Which, is why it makes more sense to start out with a 10mm drill bit...ha ha...
There's only a teeny diff in diameter, and it doesn't make any appreciable difference in performance. Plus, Powers doesn't make drill bits, but Hilti does. And the local Hilti dealer here orders in them 10mm bits no problemo...
Its the real world baby, not some spec or installation manual, neither of which were ever meant for rockclimbing. Some of us will learn what we can from them, then apply it in the field. And them bolts don't care as long as they snug down.
Brian in SLC
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asandh
Feb 13, 2004, 6:28 PM
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:)
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brianinslc
Feb 13, 2004, 7:18 PM
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In reply to: We're more picky than most, but most bolters are way too casual. All I'm trying to say is that bolts are not just for you. You owe it to the climbing community not to be a cheap skate. Do it right. If money is the issue ask other climbers for donations.
I'm anything but casual about my bolting.
Here's another point...
Pull out strength is a function of what? Surface area. Surface area in a drilled hole is a function of what? Hole diameter. Hence, a bigger hole diameter will be a stronger placement and yield more pull out strength.
10mm drill bits from Hilti cost way more than a $3 Bosch or Dewalt, so the issue for me isn't money. 10mm bits just drill a better hole, especially in hard rock. And, they are more functional, in that they allow to install either a 10mm bolt, stud or 3/8" expansion bolt.
Doin' what makes most practical sense, is, oddly enough, what makes most sense, rather than burying your head in rock dust.
Need data, though. So, here's a plan. If I can find a suitable block to drill a couple of holes in, one with a new 3/8" bit, the other with a 10mm bit, install a 3/8" power bolt into each, and pull them to failure, would that work? If I got higher test numbers with the 10mm drill bit, would you switch over?
Have you done any testing on the strength of your placements for pull out? If not, how do you know YOU are "doin' it right"? Geez, if a feller is willing to hump a torque wrench to the crag, a load cell couldn't be that much more of a hassle... How do you know what data do you have?
And your right, most bolters are WAAAY too casual. And, the accident rates from bolt failures is...what? 'Bout zilch. Name one accident resulting from Rawl or Power bolt failing. There are none. So, like I said, these bolts just aren't that finicky. And...look at the numbers of sport routes and sport climbers. Huge. Go figure.
Maybe we all should take up knitting...
Er something.
Brian in SLC
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asandh
Feb 13, 2004, 7:33 PM
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:roll:
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brianinslc
Feb 13, 2004, 7:43 PM
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In reply to: To brianinslc: Ok fine, you got me, I give up. I've already wasted to much valuable climbing time on this thread. Do it your way, just post a list of the climbs you put up so I can avoid them.
How 'bout never climbing in Utah, Idaho, or Montana? Thanks.
Oh, and put Wyoming and Nevada on that list too...ha ha...
Naw, don't give up. Its a good discussion. Lets get some test data and revisit the issue.
Here's some bolt hanger data to tide you over...
Hardness testing (traceable to NIST!) on 5 stainless bolt hangers
(average of 3 to 6 individual tests):
Bluewater: 87 HRB
Kong (2500 Kg): 88 HRB
Petzl (2200 Kg): 90 HRB
Metolius: 85 HRB
Fixe (40 Kn): 86 HRB
Approximate tensile strengths: 82 - 89 KSI.
And...I don't consider a discussion like this a waste of time...you shouldn't either.
Cheers!
Brian in SLC
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climbbaja
Feb 13, 2004, 7:57 PM
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To brianinslc:
Too much supposition (b.s.) to try to respond to. Your faulty logic astounds me. So many untested hypotheses to which you form conclusions, and then want to convince others to do as you do.
It's the same old stuff I see here way too often: "Yo dudes, I belay from a single non-locking carabiner and it has never been a problem. So that's the way to go, and everyone else should too."
I believe you would defend your position to the grave. Maybe you should try convincing Powers (Rawl) and the ANSI to change the standards. I'm done.
To everyone else:
Please do not place 3/8" bolts in 10mm holes.
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Feb 13, 2004, 8:20 PM
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where the hell is the _pirate when we need ouzo?
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brianinslc
Feb 13, 2004, 8:29 PM
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In reply to: I believe you would defend your position to the grave. Maybe you should try convincing Powers (Rawl) and the ANSI to change the standards. I'm done.
I wouldn't. Any "useful" information that you could provide I'd listen to, and evaluate. Since you don't seem to have any, then indeed, you're done.
I think you have to apply the standards and specs out there for your own particular use. We're using stuff from the construction industry. Its not really designed for rock climbing.
There's far too little actual test data out there. If you have some, please post it. Otherwise, your suppositions are just as unsupported as anyone else's.
I've done a fair amount of "investigation" on bolts and bolting. Besides blindly following ANSI specs and Powers installation guides, what have you done or learned?
Baja and San Diego, eh? So, SCC a concern for your stainless bolts? How come you're not using all Titanium glue ins? Too expensive?
I'd feel much safer on my bolts than yours...
Brian in SLC
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