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hugepedro
Feb 12, 2004, 10:10 PM
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RC.com powers that be, I asked this question in the latest Climbers For Christ thread in community, and I would much appreciate a response.
The original thread is here: http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=51715
Thank you.
In reply to: Last time all the hubbub arose over that banner, I paid no attention. Now, I clicked on it and checked out their web site. I have to say I'm a bit concerned about the promotion of this group on rc.com. Not because they are religious, but because of the actions they are promoting at crags. They are promoting preaching to non-believers at crags. In fact, it appears to be their primary purpose. Read the quotes from their site I pasted below, particularly the parts I’ve formatted in red font. One of the reasons I climb is to find peace. I do not want to be preached to at a crag. I’ll bet if we were to poll climbers, the majority would be against preaching at crags. Would rc.com accept advertising from other groups that where promoting activities at crags that the majority of climbers would oppose? Would you accept advertising from a developer who wanted to build a golf course around the base of your favorite crag? If this was a group that was all about Christians getting together for fellowship, I would have no problem with it. But they aren’t about that. They are all about evangelizing at the crag. Crags and mountains are the primary places where I experience my sense of God in its deepest. I don’t want my experience imposed upon and disrupted by people whose primary purpose is to preach their beliefs to me. Rc.com, this is not an issue of religion, it is an issue of undesirable activity at crags. I think the powers that be here should reconsider this ad in that light, and I would like to hear the opinion of the site owners on that aspect of this issue. In reply to: Our Mission -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We are a national group of Christian climbers who have a great passion to reach climbers for Christ and help them find the adventure that lasts. We are committed to " go and share the good news about Jesus Christ. " (Matthew 28:18-20) It just happens to be that the "go" part means climbing to get to where "they" are. Our Vision: Climbers Reaching Climbers For Christ Our Purpose: We exist to encourage, equip, and empower climbers to reach climbers for Christ through personal witness and group outreach.In reply to: Why a Mission to Climbers? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The 400,000 climbers in the U.S.A. and the many more in other parts of the world can be reached as a specific group of people because of three words: Community, Congregate and Connection. #1. Community Climbers are a community. They tend to think and behave along similar patterns. In their national magazines, the marriages of climbers and even the births of their babies are announced. #2. Congregate Across the U.S. there are only a few hundred climbing areas. Each weekend, thousands of climbers congregate in these areas. This allows a place for effective group outreach to happen. #3. Connection When you climb, you entrust your life to your partner. You trust them to safely hold the ropes for you. This is just the starting point for the deep connection climbers have with each other. We believe this naturally strong bond can be a powerful means for Christian climbers to present unbelieving climbers with God’s hope and purpose for living.In reply to: Methods Visibility -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Having a national presence in the climbing community through personal sharing, web site interactions and climbing publications advertising. These will encourage Christian climbers to join in the process of reaching climbers for Christ and give witness to seeking un-reached climbers. We want “Solid Rock” to be common knowledge in the climbing community. In reply to: Member Handbook The 60 pages of the Member Handbook are divided into three sections. The first is 10 Cairns to Mark the Path. Topics in the section include: Understanding Our Purpose, Why a National Mission Organization to Climbers?, Accomplishing Our Mission, Being “On Mission” when Climbing, The Role of Area Contacts, Committing to Relationship Evangelism, Taking a Risk in Faith, Witnessing Warning, Having Beautiful Feet and Thinking Right Thoughts. The second section is 10 Lessons in Climber Evangelism. Topics in the section include: Basic Training, Jesus’ Mission on Earth, Sharing Your Testimony, The Bridge Illustration, Sharing Effectively, Steps to Building a Bridge, Turning a Climbing Conversion, When Fishing is Better than Climbing, Postmodern Apologetics and Fishless Fishermen. |
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stick233
Feb 12, 2004, 10:18 PM
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this sounds worthy of a response to me... i would be pretty mad if i started getting preached to at a crag. i'd rather find god ON the route, not at the bottom of it!!
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fiend
Feb 12, 2004, 11:01 PM
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hugepedro++
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nafod
Feb 12, 2004, 11:03 PM
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In reply to: Last time all the hubbub arose over that banner, I paid no attention. Now, I clicked on it and checked out their web site. I have to say I'm a bit concerned about the promotion of this group on rc.com. Not because they are religious, but because of the actions they are promoting at crags. They are promoting preaching to non-believers at crags. In fact, it appears to be their primary purpose. Read the quotes from their site I pasted below, particularly the parts I’ve formatted in red font.
Ah, so what? So some stranger strikes up a conversation, and eventually asks you if you want to let Jesus into your life? Thank him for caring, and tell him no, but that your friend around the corner needs help since he broke up with his girlfriend last week. Just say no. They hear that a lot, it won't hurt their feelings.
And occasionally they'll actually help some lost soul who is wondering what his place is in the world, and will find solace and true peace of mind with them.
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fiend
Feb 12, 2004, 11:07 PM
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In reply to: Ah, so what? So some stranger strikes up a conversation, and eventually asks you if you want to let Jesus into your life?
It's invasive and annoying. Many religious folk can be pushy in their preaching (yes, I know, not all) and I don't want to hear about it anywhere at any time.
Many of us go to the rock to get away from things like work, our peers or society in general. I don't need anyone selling me anything, be it Avon or Jesus.
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sauron
Feb 12, 2004, 11:10 PM
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Just let it go, hugepedro...
- d.
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fiend
Feb 12, 2004, 11:12 PM
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In reply to: Just let it go, hugepedro... - d.
I actually agree with this as well. As much as I don't like the ads, I don't click them (Ok, I did once, but I was only experimenting like that time in college.... :| ) and rc.com reserves the right to serve up whatever ads they choose.
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tweek
Feb 12, 2004, 11:14 PM
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Where can I get a darwin fish chalk bag? Will that protect me?
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rrrADAM
Feb 12, 2004, 11:14 PM
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In a nutshell, they pay to advertise with us. I will read in detail your diatribe, and respond in detail tyomorrow if need be.
If you were against some of the issues that the Access Fund stood for, would you also raise a stink about their ads ???
I am an athiest by the way, so believe me, there is no agenda other than raising a bit of funds to keep the lights on for users to use the site for free.
I suggest that you remove stick from butt, as it will be hard to climb with it there brutha.
If someone tried to "witness" to me at the crags, I would tell them I am not interested... If they continued, then I would ask them what part the do not understand.
Seems as if you did not get the response you wanted in Community, now you are jumping up and down in this Forum, kinda like making us hear your sermon. Do you understand that you are being as much of a zealout as you accuse them of being ??? Even more so, in the fact that you have demanded we listen to your "witness".
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brittamac
Feb 12, 2004, 11:19 PM
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Welcome to the rest of the world - people are trying to sell/cajole/convince and otherwise convert other people everywhere - in bars, in the grocery store, at the friggin airport. It just is. I agree that it can be annoying, but nafod is right, just be polite and say no thanks. Its really not worth losing sleep over.
Biiiggggg yoga breath, dude.
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brittamac
Feb 12, 2004, 11:22 PM
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rrrADAM - you are so off the hook for a detailed response after your post - excellent point about the sermon! :D
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micahmcguire
Feb 12, 2004, 11:24 PM
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there is a huge difference between free speech and harrassment. these folks are exercising their right to free speech and free exercize of religion. its not a matter of religion, its a matter of freedom. if someone "preaches to you at a crag" and you don't like it, just say so. ask them to not preach to you. most christians are fairly understanding when you don't want to engage in a religious debate.
fiend, too friggin bad. you dont want to hear about it anywhere at anytime? go live in cuba. we have a thing called the bill of rights in this country. if you want total protection from religion, go live under a rock somewhere. its too bad you view religion as invasive and annoying. there is alot of wisdom in many different religious concepts. I suggest that maybe you are being overly sensitive and a bit too politically-correct. people are going to share their ideas with you. if you don't like it, don't listen. its not like people are "preaching at you" out of any ill-will. they are trying to save your soul the best way they know how. maybe you should be grateful that they care.
hugepedro, it is not criminal or immoral to try and spread ideas at the crags, even religious ones. you are right in suggesting that it is their "primary purpose" to preach to nonbelievers at the crags. its the primary duty of any christian to do that. I find it almost admirable that people sometimes take their religion seriously enough to do this sort of thing. If you don't agree with them, tell them "no-thank-you." If they push it, that is harrassment, and then you have grounds to complain. until then, you are just being impatient. And somehow I doubt that "the majority of climbers" oppose the spread of religious ideas. In fact, statistics will tell you that the majority of people in this country are themselves Christians, climbers or otherwise. even if a poll were taken among climbers to determine if they approve of preaching at crags or not, it doesn't matter. that kind of activity is protected under the Constitution, like it or not. when these groups actually harass you, let me know.
rrradam-totally right, preach it brotha!
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fiend
Feb 12, 2004, 11:26 PM
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Know what'd be cool?
Roving gospel congregations! Having them travel to the crags, and other adventure sport areas.
Think of the positive energy!
"Can I get a send brutha fiend!"
"Hallelujah! Bring it to the mountain!" coming from the choir
Now that's religion.
Edit: in response to micahmcguire: I'm not getting into this with you. I have my opinion, you have yours. Mine is that religion is bad and that your freedom is bullpoopy. Yours is likely that I am a heathen and will burn in Aitch Eee Dubble Hockeystix.
You can see that it all evens out in the end. ;)
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brittamac
Feb 12, 2004, 11:30 PM
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sweet music of angels...... :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:
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calamity_chk
Feb 12, 2004, 11:31 PM
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"Send brutha fiend!"
"Hallelujah! Bring it to the mountain!"
;)
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fiend
Feb 12, 2004, 11:34 PM
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Seriously, picture the sun reflecting of their shiny purple and white robes...
everyone swaying back and forth...
it'd be a beautiful thing. :D
Where's Andy? Maybe he can incorporate this into his religion.
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brittamac
Feb 12, 2004, 11:40 PM
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You could fashion a big sacrificial alter at the top of the route - oh wait, wrong religion. My bad.
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calamity_chk
Feb 12, 2004, 11:45 PM
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In reply to: Seriously, picture the sun reflecting of their shiny purple and white robes... everyone swaying back and forth... it'd be a beautiful thing. :D
yeah, in the rare event that i end up married, i'm totally having a dirtbag wedding.
the desert is my refuge, perfect handcracks are my saviour.
peace be to solid gear and good climbing to all.
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rvega
Feb 12, 2004, 11:54 PM
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Well being athesist myself I'm not so stoked about religious advertisments. However, I do have to agree that if don't like it...don't click on it.
If someone was to come up to me at the crag and give me a sermon I might give them sermon of my own. In fact, if I was in a bad mood I may just tell them where they can stick it, but I have no problem with them dulling out the bucks to pay for an ad.
And yet I'm not so sure I believe that we live in a country that has absolute freedom of religion. Just the fact that our president in a born again Christain and feels the need to tell us that "god said marriage is this or that" clearly demonstrates that we don't have absolute freedom of speech or religion. Never the less we definitetly have the right to advertise!
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micahmcguire
Feb 12, 2004, 11:55 PM
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fiend, good thing you're not going to get into this with me, because you've made some very foolish allegations. first and foremost is to suggest that I think you are a heathen. I am not a religious person, so obviouly I do not place you under such a light.
I think you are a fool. I think you are too close-minded to see past your precious little paradigm. I think you lack repect for other people and for their ideas, whether they are unfounded or not. I think my "bullpoopy freedom" beats the holy hell out of your stance on "religion being bad." And i feel this way for many reasons. Primarily I feel this way because society needs the freedom to exercize religion. Any society where the standards of beliefs are decided for them will fall eventually due to the demands of the people. people are religious by nature, regardless if it is sensible or not. when the people are forced to believe something, or to not believe something, not only has the governing party set itself up for eventual annihilation, but it has stripped the right of the people to choose for themselves regarding something more precious than any physical or monetary substance. You can't make people think a certain way or feel a certain way for long. The best way to preserve a society is to let the masses have their say and have the government moderate to assure no one group violates another. This is a very Machiavellian way to think I know, but hey, you can see this mode of thinking in nearly every stable government on earth.
I guess your "freedom is bullpoopy" comment was what set me off. Do you have any other suggestions Big Brother, or are you just another voice complaining about "the system" and offering no solution in recompense?
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furryfrisbee
Feb 13, 2004, 12:05 AM
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Has anyone here actually been contacted by this group when you were at the crag? Is this a panic over somthing that MIGHT happen? One time I came across some obviously Christian climbers, but only because the woman I was with and myself were looking over the valley in the early morning, enjoying the view, when two climbers came to pray before climbing. They asked if we were Christians, and if would we like to join with them in prayer before a day of climbing. The woman I was with is Catholic, I'm agnostic, and we did not participate. We did not interfere either. They did not push, they never mentioned it again. We ran across them again later in the day, and even climbed a TR they had setup. Good strong climbers, and likable people, and I would gladly climb with them the next time we meet. I would be more concerned with the Born Again Christians you run across at your kid's school functions than anyone I might meet at the crag.
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flagstaff_climber
Feb 13, 2004, 12:15 AM
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Don't pray at my crag and I won't climb on your church....
God was my co-pilot, but we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat him......
Mad Dog is God Dannnned spelled backwards, think about that....
DOG is my co-pilot.....
But seriously folks, one of the rudimental tenets of any religion is that they have to go out and find new suckers, I mean converts. It is somewhat like a pyramid scheme :) So if they show up at the crags as individuals politely tell them that you worship Lynn Hill and go on about your climbing. If however they show up as a group, heckle them :)
Rick
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hugepedro
Feb 13, 2004, 1:01 AM
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In reply to: Just let it go, hugepedro... - d.
I'm merely asking a question, one that I believe is valid and has not been addressed here. Is that not allowed here?
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hugepedro
Feb 13, 2004, 1:06 AM
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For everyone that says, "what's the big dealio, just say no thanks", I agree. But I think there's more to the issue than that, please read below.
In reply to: In reply to: Like I said before, there are more and less radical members of any group. To assume that every member of any particular religious group is some preachy, holier than thou, pushy obnoxious ...whatever, is just ignorant. If I meet one who starts doing taht I will politely express my lack of interst in dicussing it with that person. If they persist I will tell them to STFU. What's the big deal? It's no worse or better than hearing all the polotical drama spewed all over the place. Wide, my fellow dimensionally-nicknamed friend, I would do the same, and you are correct, even though I find being preached to offensive and an afront to my beliefs, especially in a place where I find a heightened sense of my own personal spirituality, I would deal with the individual and it wouldn't be a big deal. And you are correct in your point about the difference in individuals, we have already heard from some members of CFC here that they themselves would feel uncomfortable witnessing at the crag. But we are not talking about individuals here (at least I'm not). I am talking about an organization that is actively encouraging, promoting, and instructing their members how to preach at the crag. That is what bothers me. That will mean an increase in a type of activity at the crag that I find offensive. I believe many climbers would find such activity undesireable in the least. |
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curt
Feb 13, 2004, 1:15 AM
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I have a couple of comments that I would like to add to this.
1) ho
2) hum
Curt
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