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okinawatricam
Feb 12, 2004, 7:45 AM
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Alright, I know it's a great book, but why doe it appeal to so many climbers?
Thanks
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vegastradguy
Feb 12, 2004, 7:47 AM
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it is a great book, and appeals to alot of people.
didnt know it appealed to climbers so much. most of my climber friends havent read a book in years......(i said most, not all!)
i'll be interested to hear the responses on this one.
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goodwill
Feb 12, 2004, 8:09 AM
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I agree with both posts so far... it is an excellent book, but I also didn't know it was popular among climbers. I'll be curious to see how many others from this site respond about this.
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skiclimb
Feb 12, 2004, 8:17 AM
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Cause Dagny was hot...
We all think we are Francisco or Ragnar
And perhaps most of us would prefer the Gov't to "get the hell out of my way"
It's Big therefore a great book for storm days...
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supertopoz
Feb 12, 2004, 12:04 PM
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John Galt is a selfish idot who could not cope with the real world so he created his own.
If the selfish life style is truely your own phylosophy then you are missing some of the most important aspects of humanity, just as Ayn Rand missed some of the most humain aspects of humanity.
She failed in many ways to see the big picture. Many of her ideas paint a picture which can never exist for the simple reason that it is so difficult to place exact value on some skills, emotions and friendships that are priceless.
Husband says to wife "oh! yes darling I will clean the car for you, but you must pay me in gold coins" what bullshit is that, you have have to live in a life where for every little task you do, you expect something in return."
If it is climbers that like John Galt then they are laughing in the face of the natural environment that we hold so dear to us. You with OBJECTIVISM it is all or nothing. I want to build a new hotel in Yosimete valley I want it to be big and I want you to pay me lots of money to stay there. This hotel will provide jobs for thousands and put food on my table I don't care what is does to the in terms of changing a natural environment, but I will use the latest technology to make sure it doesn't produce too much polution. You see there are all ways two sides to a story. While I am being selfish doing the things I want another man is loosing out. If he does what he wants then someone else can't, the valley could work in ATLAS SHRUGGED, but you will notice that it misses the point of humanity. That every one is different and everyhuman needs some thing different from the next. It might work on local scale but it can not work on a world wide scale.
OPJECTIVEISM in the United states will always fail because on a global scale people live in wonderful comunities which get on with each other as big groups of familes and friends. If Ayn Rand had lived any place outside of the westeren world for any length of time she would have seen that her ideas where just that, "her ideas".
That my friends is why John Galt is so far from "Jesus, Mohammed, Budda, and any other majour religious leader" They all teach too live in harmony with those around you. Ayn Rand does teach to love your self and Jesus taught the same, Budda taught to love everything around you. But none of the world's greatest thinkers have ever said never work unless you get paid for it. The best gift is always given when we expect nothing in return.
If a climber likes John Gault then he has failed to fully understand the whole concept of what John Gault stands for.
He was a selfish, egotistic, who thought he was better than the whole world and didn't really give a toss about anyone unless they thought like he did.
I have never met a single climber outside of the Unitedstates who is like that.
My spelling AND grammer is bad, but I choose it to be that way, I expect nothing in return for my words, and if you don't like what I say then you may retrun to your own life and not join me in mine.
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overlord
Feb 12, 2004, 12:14 PM
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who is he anyway???
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dontjinxme
Feb 12, 2004, 12:49 PM
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Yea right.....good question...
Who is this selfish no good for nothing lump of cow dung.
Never heard of the guy.
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justin
Feb 12, 2004, 12:57 PM
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Personally I prefered "The Fountainhead" though I don't completely agree with Ayn Rand.
Zimmering's "Contradictions In American Capital Punishment" is a blinder too, though that's a personnal recommendation and not related to Ms Rand's work.
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uasunflower
Feb 12, 2004, 1:45 PM
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I liked the book and do not see why it would contradict climbing (although didnt think untill now about it appealing specifically to climbers). Supertopoz, i had a different understanding of the whole picture, and thought it more honest than selfish. It certainly gets controversial when you push it to the extremes like "what would happen to civil order without gov't (police)" or all the enviromental issues, however the book doesnt go against the natural environment and is not at all as mercantile as you make it sound. What it puts into focus is individual achievement and its recognition, and this could be relevant to many aspects of our lives, certainly to climbing.
Look i.e. at the relationship between the climbing partners. You say that "the best gift is always given when we expect nothing in return", however what motivates me in my inner self to belay someone is the fact that then he will belay me in return. It is a simplification of the whole climbing bond for sure, however i wouldn't climb with someone if the only thing i'd do would be belay. I do not need him to pay me in gold coins for the service provided (Rand lived still in the times of gold standards :) ), the satisfaction from climbing does the trick, but i do not see this motivation as wrong(=selfish in your understanding) per se. All our actions are motivated by self-intrest one way or another, and aknowledging it is plain honest.
Yes, US is the most individualistic country of them al' but that doesn't mean this philosophy could not apply anywhere else. If you look at the collapses in most developping countries, their situations are much closer to what Rand describes than you would imagine. You don't need to go abroad either, just look at the US war policy lately and compare with what Ayn Rand says about gov't-organized conflicts. Welcome looters. Oh, and what's that about "global wonderful communities of friends and family" - have you read any news lately on say any African country :lol: ?
Anyway, in conclusion, i think the main idea people usually misunderstand in Rand's philosophy is that it's not a zero-sum game (if someone wins, someone else has to starve), but a win-win situation (in utopic world of atlas at least) she defends. And don't mix philosophy and religion, it's a neverending chasm :wink:
ps - i just saw "touching the void" and you could perfectly justify Simon's actions through Ayn's philosophy. Ayn's ideas apply well in the mountains, maybe because we are reduced to our basics out there, maybe because we are more honest while climbing...
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supertopoz
Feb 13, 2004, 1:46 AM
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uasunflower you, are right in all that you say because what you say deals with Ayn Rands philosophy in it's ideal state.
I am sorry for mixing in some religion, but many of the greatest religious leaders were essentialy promoting their own version of the "Truth".
I do follow the news extensivily and try to take a constant opjective point of view. Thus I never watch CNN or any other American news broadcast. The looters do exist and it is they who hold 90 percent of the worlds wealth. I do also believe that hard work should be rewarded. But I do not believe that Ayn Rand presents a phylosophy which can work out side of her own sphere of influence.
As for climbing I have read many of Joe simpsons books and he is the prime example of egotisim. Quite often it was his selfish ego that created many of the problems that he found himself in. Had he for one moment stopped and thought about what he was doing then, he might have slowed down a little and learned more abot mountainering and the why's and where for's. Don't miss understand, I don't have nothing against his system. But you can see that had he aplied Ayn Rands thinking, then he would have taken the where with all to drink more water and eat more food, or turned back.
My problem with Ayn's thinking is that it is based on helping ourselves which works fine in a argerian, healthy, fit, suntaned society. But where poor people are involved, where the sick and the needy are involved. Ayn presents them as the looting people, and I agree that that sometimes it is there own fault. But so long as there are a whole countries of people doing what they want to when they want to, making money as their single aim. Then there are always going to be the less well of doing the hard work to make those people rich.
And don't tell me we can all be rich because we can't, basicaly because then money looses it's value.
Have you, uasunflower have you ever tried going climbing with a group of people where you only belayed all day. If you don't like this stlye then you have never visited Asia.
What is wrong with gaining satisfaction from helping another man to achieve his goal. Sure he can reach the goal by himself, but he will surly be great full for a friend who helped him with out expecting a single thing in return. That is how the society of climbing friends I live works. We all have our goals and aims, but we all put our best effort into helping the next man achieve his.
That my friend is KARMA and LOVE, Give what you would like to recieve, but EXPECT nothing in return.
Climbing is a poor example to which to apply OBJECTIVISM because the end reuslt is nothing, you have produced nothing you have gained nothing material.
Which is the oposite from OBJECTIVISM. Climbing is about self fullfillment and self developement, but none of that in it's self gains any thing material.
As for those professional climbers, who in the upper percentile of the climbing comunity, do they climb for the gain of material wealth? it is hardly a good carrer move to spend twenty years getting to the top of you profession to be rewared by demanding sponsors and snearing peers because you only climb for material gain. Then along comes a young upstart who is better than you any way.
I wish to engage in a dicussion which clearly contradicts what as say and is based upon the advantages of so called OBJECTIVISM
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dingus
Feb 13, 2004, 2:28 AM
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Atlas Shrugged was 500 pages TOO LONG.
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
How many times, over and over and over, must the same point be made?
Well, about 1000 pages worth I guess.
Who is John Galt?
Who the fuck cares! Freakin drivel
DMT
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iamthewallress
Feb 13, 2004, 2:41 AM
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I bought this horrendous Ode to Selfishness on tape because for my dollar it got me the most listening hours which translated to the most trips to Yosemite and back. It took endurance to get through the first few tapes. I was praying for a semi to swerve into my lane and put me out of my misery by half way. Two sides of a tape were dedicated to John Galt's soliloquy. I kept hitting fast forward, but the pain wouldn't end. I actually did finish listening to all 20 tapes (or something like that...) Disgusting philosophy. Terrible book.
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gravitytheory
Feb 13, 2004, 2:42 AM
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I think its a type of Beer (John Galt's Malt Beverage), hence its appeal to climbers.
But seriously, Ayn Rand's philosophy was an extreme reaction to her experience growing up in the Soviet Union. Hence the complete antithesis of "equality" among men (and women). That said, she does make some good points, and her style is fun to read because it is so extreme. Read the book, if only because the title is so darn cool. "Atlas Shrugged". I love mythological and Biblical reference in literature. It hits some sort of primal region of the brain where the archetypes dwell in their abstact glory. Ahhh, the beauty of the cultural evolution of humanity... now if we would just stop screwing over the environment we could get somewhere.
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noodlearms
Feb 13, 2004, 3:29 AM
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Atlas Shrugged is a great book, if you're 16 and looking for an oversimplified view of life that you can use to justify strutting around, being a jerk to people, and feeling superior.
Rand talked like she had cornered the market on reason -- to the point of naming her philosophy "Objectivism". But her philosophy is not based on reason. She was, in fact, a champion rationalizer. She started with an image of what she wanted an "ideal" man to be, and simply ignored any evidence to the contrary.
Her fundamental mistake is her assertion -- without any justification from biology or psychology -- that man is a rational being. That all emotions come from reason.
Even the incredible train wreck of her own personal life, the result of attempting to put her theories into practise, did not make her change her mind. She died an adolescent.
I still love her first novel, We the Living. It's mostly her emotional reaction to the life she led in the Soviet Union. It was in her subsequent attempt to construct a philosophy to justify those emotions that she lost touch with reality.
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mtn_eagle
Feb 13, 2004, 3:36 AM
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IMO people enjoy reading Ayn Rand if they have a big enough ego (or imagination) to think that she writing about them when she makes characters like Galt and Roark. The reality is however that Rand would place most of those dreamers at the back of the line.
I suggest Don Quixote, which I think is much more to a climber's taste and will keep you entertained for a few big walls.
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noodlearms
Feb 13, 2004, 3:39 AM
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In reply to: IMO people enjoy reading Ayn Rand if they have a big enough ego (or imagination) to think that she writing about them when she makes characters like Galt and Roark.
I can testify from my own adolescent attitude way back when that you are right on the money.
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justincoyle
Feb 13, 2004, 3:51 AM
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I read a poll a few years ago that said Atlas Shrugged was the second most influencial book in peoples lives. It came in right behind the Bible.
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noodlearms
Feb 13, 2004, 3:56 AM
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Yeah, and it made Officer Barbrady quit reading on South Park....
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jv
Feb 13, 2004, 5:11 AM
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What's this doing in the General forum? And the Hall Monitors are usually so efficient.
JV
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okinawatricam
Feb 16, 2004, 6:18 AM
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It seems that the debate goes on
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okinawatricam
Feb 16, 2004, 7:02 AM
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I agree that the Fountain Head does a much better job at showing how objectivism works.
While it i true that she often omit certain characters from her book that are present in the real world. Overall, her ideas are good.
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drkodos
Feb 16, 2004, 7:06 AM
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In reply to: What's this doing in the General forum? JV
There is of yet no Overhyped-slush-for-pseudo-intellectuals forum to which it can be fitted properly.
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justin
Feb 16, 2004, 10:43 AM
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nonetheless, I'm glad I read 'em and popular culture does make a few references to Ms Rand. I'd think one would be at a disadvantage for not at least being aware of her treatise.
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yay_chris
Feb 16, 2004, 12:50 PM
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Ayn Rand made it very easy for a reader to believe her theories because she lined-up beautiful, dashing, smart capitalists against ugly, evil, petty socialists.
Her philosphies would really be put to the test if some of the antagonists were dashing and intelligent and caring - which none were.
But Francisco is my hero nonetheless, and I agree that money is wrongly convicted for all the crap that goes on in the world.
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zozo
Feb 16, 2004, 1:24 PM
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Mix alittle darwinism, a dash of arragance and throw in a ton of "Days of our Lives" = Atlas shrugged. Like many have already said I dug the heck out of Ms. Rand when I still thought the world revolved around me.
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