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beyond_gravity
Mar 26, 2002, 4:07 AM
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i dont get it, if your going to drill a hole, why dont you just place a bolt??
Drill On,
JEremy
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addiroids
Mar 26, 2002, 4:24 AM
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Sure, I'm no doctor (yet) but I think I know the SHORT and SIMPLE answer.
Rivits are faster to place. The hole is shorter and narrower, so it takes less time to drill. They also hold a short fall, so they are better than just a bat hook hole. Bolts, on the other hand, can take 30+ minutes to drill and you must leave a more expensive piece of gear. If you are drilling a 40' rivit ladder, why would place a bomber bolt every 5 feet and take 4 days to lead that pitch, when you can just place a few "body weight only" rivits and place a bolt every 3rd or so rivit??
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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beyond_gravity
Mar 26, 2002, 4:39 AM
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so are rivets just normal bolts you get at the hardwear store pounded into rock?
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johnhenry
Mar 26, 2002, 5:05 AM
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Rivets are not concrete anchors like protection bolts but, rather, machine bolts that are pounded into a hole that is slightly smaller than the threads on it. The threads mangle in the hole and give it a little grip.
My question is this:
Why would you use rivets when you could use removable bolts (or ball in spoon cams as I call them)?
Please don't say:
1.)The holes are hard to see
2.)"I don't trust them"
3.)"I simply enjoy pounding larger things into tight holes (this is understood, I live in Japan...)"
These babies are the shit.
If you can find Bat Hook holes than you can find an RB hole. In fact, because they are facing down they are easier to see. They take the same amount of time to drill as rivits and, guess what, they hold falls. If you are a Big Wall FA hardman (unlike me) you should ask the company for a pro deal on them. I don't understand why they haven't changed the game. Ball and spoon cams forever!!!
-john
[ This Message was edited by: johnhenry on 2002-03-25 21:09 ]
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passthepitonspete
Mar 26, 2002, 6:11 AM
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I haven't tried removable bolts yet so can't comment on them, but I agree they are less intrusive than rivets.
A rivet is typically a 3/4" or 1" long Grade 5 machine bolt of 5/16" diameter pounded into a quarter-inch hole. I've drilled my own rivets at a belay and hung my ledge off of it, with two of us sleeping on one rivet no problems. And yes, it was backed up!
I think that stainless steel instead of Grade 5 steel would be the Better Way.
Prior to someone figuring out that a pounded-in machine bolt would hold in a hole, climbers whacked in aluminum dowelling and kind of mushroomed it in.
Another idea behind rivets is that they are more sporting than bolts.
For the most part, bat holes are frowned upon. General consensus is, or at least I think it is,
"if you're going to drill a hole, then you might as well put a rivet in it."
Removeable bolts may well change this way of thinking.
Edit: As you can see, I really don't know that much about rivets. If you want to know more, then I suggest you click here to
Ask Copperhead and Apollodorus about rivets.
These dudes know way more about these things than I do! You can find sheer strength and pull-out strength data, and a whole lot more!
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beyond_gravity
Mar 26, 2002, 4:20 PM
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so "hangerlessbolt" is really a rivet
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andy_lemon
Mar 26, 2002, 4:32 PM
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Good Call!
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passthepitonspete
Mar 26, 2002, 4:50 PM
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BAD call, you midwestern sport climbing woosy!
Absolutely not!
If you want to see hangerless bolts, then you should have climbed the Leaning Tower in 1983 when I did.
All of Warren Harding's quarter inchers were there. We didn't have any rivet hangers back then - we just slipped wired stoppers over them.
Now, the Tower angles outward at 120 degrees, meaning a hangerless bolt drilled straight in angles downward at 30 degrees.
The ends of the hangerless bolts had been bent upwards by hammer blows so that the wired stoppers didn't slip off!
Bashies, smashies, bolts, rivets, dowels - I've used 'em all, and I "get" 'em all.
Cheers,
PTCCP
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radistrad
Mar 26, 2002, 4:54 PM
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I've heard that removable bolts are really hard to get out once weighted or after they have held a fall. I've never used them but that is what I understand about them.
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andy_lemon
Mar 26, 2002, 5:00 PM
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I've seen hangerless bolts on several occasions. One, there is 2 or 3 routes at Unlikely Wall in Indiana that have the hangers removed. There is one at Dawson Bluffs in KY with hangers removed... and I'm sure there are infanite hangers removed on routes in Red River Gorge, we saw three routes with them gone on our last trip.
When we went to Unlikely Wall we led a route with the hangers removed... We used my set of nuts; lowering the nut on the wire, hooking the bolt with the wire, the pushing the nut back up.
This is not a rare thing to do... it is just that rivets was a good catch to hangerlessbolts.
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andy_lemon
Mar 26, 2002, 5:03 PM
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Oh, and this takes more balls then the average "midwestern sport climbing woosy!"
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apollodorus
Mar 26, 2002, 10:11 PM
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Grade 5 machine bolts as rivets are "traditional". 304 stainless steel is the "better way". The yield strength of the grade 5 and 304 bolts is about the same, but the stainless is going to last a lot longer. 304 also work hardens better (gets stronger when it is deformed), possibly leading to better pull-out strength.
Stainless steel will set you back an extra 21 cents per bolt.
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passthepitonspete
Mar 26, 2002, 10:18 PM
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I wonder about pull-out strength.
With heads, you get better "grip" with aluminum then copper, even though the aluminum isn't as strong.
Do you think the softer threads in the steel would "bite" a bit better than the stainless?
I still agree that stainless is the better way, at your suggestion, incidentally, because they will not corrode anywhere near as badly.
Even *I* can afford that much extra!
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beyond_gravity
Mar 27, 2002, 12:53 AM
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this is totally off topic, but what does RUP stand for?
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addiroids
Mar 27, 2002, 1:11 AM
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RURP stands for:
Realized Ultimate Reality Piton
It is a very small square shaped piton the size of a postage stamp for nailing non-existent cracks. See www.bdel.com to find them.
Hint: They will not be on the same page as the quickdraws.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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beyond_gravity
Mar 27, 2002, 1:19 AM
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so if i buy one and hang it off my harness, i'll look hardcore? so there just like a #0 RP then.
RURP ON,
Jeremy
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addiroids
Mar 27, 2002, 1:27 AM
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Uhh no. I don't think that would work. Buy 3 #5 Camalots, and 2 Wild Country #6 Friends, and scrounge up some Yates Big Dudes, and hang all that off your harness. Then go climb Lucille. That will make you hardcore. Also, when you are trying to find partners, clip that stuff to the outside of your pack. Use the words "fun" and "off-width" in the same sentence.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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beyond_gravity
Mar 27, 2002, 2:29 AM
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I think that beyond_gravity's look hardcore with $12 is a cheaper way then that!
hammer On,
Jeremy
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apollodorus
Mar 27, 2002, 8:01 AM
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The pullout strength of a rivet depends on the rock. In hard rock, a stronger steel will spring against the sides of the smooth hole better, increasing strength.
Head and bashies get their strength from being flowed to conform to cracks, grooves, etc. The softer the material and the less the springback, the better it will conform. By the way, those "copper" heads that are made using cable fittings are actually a low-zinc brass that is much harder and stronger than pure copper.
Pure copper would make a better head than those cable fittings. Trouble is, it's so sticky, it's almost impossible to drill a hole in it. It just gums up the bit. And you can't hold it in a vise, because it's so soft, it mashes down on the bit as you drill. That's probably why most climbers just use the cable-fitting copper heads. Because they can't find a way to A) get pure copper and B) they can't find a way to get a hole into it for the cable.
Yee-Haw! Pure copper heads for the Scorched Earth Death Pitches. Ya' up fer it, Doc?
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beyond_gravity
Mar 27, 2002, 4:00 PM
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why dont aid climbers just make there own A5 pro? take the tab off a popcan and hammer it into a crack. There, you have a A5 placement.
Happy Landing!
FLASHED crashpads
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apollodorus
Mar 28, 2002, 9:13 AM
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Too small to clip.
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beyond_gravity
Mar 28, 2002, 11:20 PM
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not here not, i can fit a biner threw!
______________________
Jug With Jumars Jeremy
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apollodorus
Mar 29, 2002, 3:04 AM
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You're not supposed to climb with those little toy carabiners, especially the BD plastic ones. They're for your car keys. Or maybe a water bottle.
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cryptoboy
Mar 29, 2002, 4:27 AM
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Quote:
Use the words "fun" and "off-width" in the
same sentence.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
That bit made me laugh for about 5 minutes (I just started to learn crack climbing and I'm not sure whether to be terrified by off-width or excited because of the supreme suffering they offer)
c
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addiroids
Mar 29, 2002, 5:39 AM
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You got it right. Suffering is why we climb. So you should be excited for that fact. It sure would be much easier to just sit home and drink beer, but we go out in search of suffering. Where better to find it than an 8" crack.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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