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Haul and Lower out lines
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crackboy


Feb 19, 2004, 1:52 PM
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Haul and Lower out lines
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So i was out at REI today and saw that they had a Beal trail line on sale, basically its a 60m 8mm static line.

now i can see using 8mm for a lower out line but 60m is probably overkill for that.

where as 60m would be perfect for hauling but 8mm seems a touch thin

what do you guys use for the most part?


lambone


Feb 19, 2004, 2:03 PM
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I bought that rope. Black Diamond was selling the same rope discounted on their web-site.

I like it so far. The sheath is a little wimpy. I use it for a tag line, and as a second rope for double rope rappels. I have done some mini hauls with it, but never the full pig yet. It loves to get knotted and tangled in everyway possible, but that's typical with an 8 mil.

I'm considering using it as my sole haul rope for soloing the Leaning Tower. The thought of rapping on 8mil with huge air below me makes me shiver just sitting here, but my fat haul line is such a heavy beast!

Anyone else solo with an 8 mil haul line?


crotch


Feb 19, 2004, 4:40 PM
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I only use 8 mil haul lines. Don't know if I'd trust it on a Grade VI though. They last through several shorter walls though.


mikeehartley


Feb 19, 2004, 6:31 PM
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Lambone,

I have the same rope and have hauled a full pig with it though not a great deal. It's held up very well though. I did use it for rope soloing also but I quit. I don't really feel that an 8 mm is ever going to break as long as its not over a sharp edge but I just couldn't convince my mind of it on a free rappel. Its great for all of the other uses you mentioned though.


karlbaba


Feb 21, 2004, 8:15 PM
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I have found that 8-9 mil ropes are great for hauling since they seem to induce less friction through the hauling device.

That said, it's also harder to help the system by pulling up on the incoming rope, and I imagine they wear faster than bigger ropes.

Sometimes it's just too tempting to use the semi-retired wall lead line to haul since it's so bomber, already paid for, and doesn't matter if it wears out. Having a back-up lead line is nice.

Some folks prefer static lines which I think are a bit overrated. Once you haul out a bit of stretch of a dynamic line, the stretch is over and I haul away. I'm big and fat though so your results may vary.

I weigh all the circumstances and make a call, wall by wall

peace

karl


mandrake


Feb 23, 2004, 3:37 PM
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In reply to:
I have found that 8-9 mil ropes are great for hauling since they seem to induce less friction through the hauling device.
...
Some folks prefer static lines which I think are a bit overrated. Once you haul out a bit of stretch of a dynamic line, the stretch is over and I haul away.

Karl,

So, not sure I'm reading your post right. Do you haul on an 8-9 mm dynamic line? Like a half/double rope?

If so, what's the advantage over an 8mm static line? I've got doubles, but my understanding is that you can't really use just one as a single lead line if your main lead line gets shredded or chopped. Right? (well, hell, you can use yarn, but I mean reasonably safely).

Thx, Bret


karlbaba


Feb 23, 2004, 7:30 PM
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I make a call based on the route. Sometimes I haul on an old 10.5 stratos.

I've hauled on 8 mil statics and 9 mil dynamics before too. A 9 mil dynamic would be reasonably safe to lead on in a real pinch while an 8 mil static would be suicide. After all, most of the time when you fall on double lines, just one lline holds the whole fall doesn't it?

Peace

karl


iamthewallress


Feb 23, 2004, 7:37 PM
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I have a 250 ft. 9.5 mM static. It's long enough to be both the haul and the lower out in most Yosemite situations, and often it's long enough to allow fixing two pitches off of it followed by a single haul to the high point in the a.m. I might be brave about hauling on the 8 mm, and wouldn't worry at all about a light pack, but I get a bit queezy thinking about jugging on it.


apollodorus


Mar 25, 2004, 2:08 AM
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8mm is too small for serious wall work.

Typically, you would use a full 11mm (7/16") static for a hauling/fixing rope.

When the leader reaches the belay, you tie a butterfly knot in the haul line for the pig, and use the rest to lower it out. If you need more rope for a lowerout, use 10m or 20m of small rope (6mm, or so); tie it to the pig itself, and not to the end of the rest of the haul line because the knot will catch in a crack.

It is a rare pitch that traverses so much, and is so long, that a separate lowerout line is required. Are you sure that you are going up that pitch?

The main reason you want a beefy haul line is because your pig will want to catch on ledges and such, and a thin line is not good for transmitting frantic pulls up and down to free it. Plus, you might want it as a fix line up there, and you don't want to jug up a wimpy 8mm line.

Short story: get a beefy haul rope


brutusofwyde


Mar 25, 2004, 9:29 AM
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In reply to:
8mm is too small for serious wall work.

Typically, you would use a full 11mm (7/16") static for a hauling/fixing rope.

When the leader reaches the belay, you tie a butterfly knot in the haul line for the pig, and use the rest to lower it out. If you need more rope for a lowerout, use 10m or 20m of small rope (6mm, or so); tie it to the pig itself, and not to the end of the rest of the haul line because the knot will catch in a crack.

Like Karl, my choice depends on the situation.

Personally I don't subscribe to re-tying the haul bag every pitch, as I worry about the possibility of dropping the pig. But the merits and risks of this technique have been thoroughly discussed elsewhere.

On a remote backcountry wall, Tehipite Dome for example, I would go with the lightest haul rope I would trust. 8mm is about the lower limit of such ropes, and most lightweight ascenders such as WC ropemen do not work well on this thin a rope. (Tiblocks do, but have teeth that are too aggressive for my taste. )

OTOH, I shredded one of the aforementioned thin PMI static lines against the rock during its second pitch of use on Calaveras Dome, jugging it. The rope was new, and there were no obvious sharp edges involved, simply a bulge with some rough crystals. Wakes ya up.

Often I have used a retired lead rope as a haul rope, and a few times I have swapped lead and haul ropes mid-wall when the lead rope looked damaged. As the Babameister noted, the dynamic ropes work well as haul ropes after you get the strtch out.

Brutus


crackboy


Mar 25, 2004, 10:34 AM
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well i didn't end up getting the trail line that was on sale. to me it didn't inspire confidence, pictureing myself hanging on that thing by a pair of jugs didn't exactly leave me with warm fuzzies.

i liked melissa's extra long 9.5 haul line, but i don't need it yet, but ill have two 8.6 dynamics once i retire my current set of doubles so i can always use them

thanks to the more experienced guys(and gals) for chiming in.


russwalling


Mar 25, 2004, 10:48 AM
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In reply to:
A 9 mil dynamic would be reasonably safe to lead on in a real pinch while an 8 mil static would be suicide.
karl

Depends on how you do it.... I've lead on a 8mm static, solo, with a modified grigri. It slips through just enough to keep your spleen in place. YMMV
Russ

(oh yeah.... didn't fall)


timpanogos


Mar 25, 2004, 11:02 AM
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YOU ARE an ANIMAL Russ! - talking about a dynamic self belay!

I got the same 8mil you guys are talking about - I've been using it on my project

reason

I'm a losey climber and can not get anyone to go with me - damn that solo trek from car to base is painful - my normal 11+ steel wire cable - um I mean haul line - is ONE HEAVY bugger.

My El cap partner asked - "You planning on taking that 8mil haul on WSR?"

my answer - "Are you as nuts as Russ Walling dude?" [in appreciative admiration for Russ's sack size on those dynamics]

Chad


iamthewallress


Mar 25, 2004, 11:12 AM
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:roll: :roll: :roll:


brianinslc


Mar 25, 2004, 11:30 AM
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Depends on how you do it.... I've lead on a 8mm static, solo, with a modified grigri. It slips through just enough to keep your spleen in place. YMMV
Russ

That Beal/BD trail line is a POS, IMHO. Acts more like 7mm perlon. Construction is very wimpy. Seen 'em trashed pretty easy on several occasions. They don't rap well, they don't hold up to abrasion well, they tend to not handle well either.

I'd cut one up for use as a cordellete, but, I'd never fix a pitch or haul with it.

Its not near the same as, say, a BW static in 8mm. I'd take my Espirit 6mm alpine escape rope over the trail line, any day.

You have to wonder why its not available any more...

Brian in SLC


crackboy


Mar 25, 2004, 12:01 PM
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actually i was going to say that looking at it it doesn't look nearly as fat as some radno 8mm cord i used to have on my hexes. kinda freaky


timpanogos


Mar 25, 2004, 1:49 PM
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Thanks Brian!

Crap - I tried my in the gym - single rope rap on grigri - hard bounce - held fine. Double rope rap (9.2 dyno and 8mil static) belay device - no worries.

Ready for the big out doors.

Next weekend - 3rd pitch - solo Black Peeler - huge-o-mungo traverse - was planning on that 8mil for a 100' rap and likely a 100' diagnal jug back to the anchor for clean cycle.

Are we talking about that black 8mil "trail line" - not sure if it's a beal, better check - rope?

is it really that bad?

Chad


Partner coylec


Mar 25, 2004, 2:01 PM
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In reply to:
:roll: :roll: :roll:

huh?


timpanogos


Mar 25, 2004, 2:36 PM
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Ok, rephrase:

I think my rope is the same one being spoken of here not sure if its a Beal but I bought it at/from Black Diamond outlet store. Its black and I think its named Trail Line. Its an 8mil static 60 meter rope.

It is very static which is nice I know because I loaded it up on a totally free rap station, loaded up one strand in my grigri and bounced it real hard several times while rappelling about 35 I felt safe and good about hands free rapping with a grigri on this line after this.

Second test, back up to the top with my normal lead line 10.2 dynamic (woops, said 9.2 before). Personally liking the Euro-Death knot, I tie my 10.2 to my 8 mil setup a normal 2 rope rap and on down I go on my B-52 belay device. All seems well.

Im planning on using this rope as my second rope (haul/rap/jug for clean cycle) on a pitch that traverses Im guessing about 50 horizontal and gains about 65 vertical

Now, BrianInSLC knowing about the pitch Im about to do states this rope is a POS, abrades easily etc.

Im asking him am I going to die as I rap down far enough on this POS to then jug back up to the bottom anchor in order to then clean the pitch doing the old penji rub on some unknown lip at the upper anchor.

Summary:
1. Is the Beal Bd/trail line you guys are speaking of Black in color?
2. is it really that fragile (gonna core shot the thing on this hard clean cycle).


brianinslc


Mar 25, 2004, 2:41 PM
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In reply to:
Are we talking about that black 8mil "trail line" - not sure if it's a beal, better check - rope?

is it really that bad?

Beal = BD for ropes.

IMHO, yeah, was a bad deal. Way too much elongation, soft, very loose sheath on some of them (sort of shrugged up when you rappelled on them). Not sure if it was a "lot to lot" type problem, or if all of them were like this, but, the few that I saw were.

Note that in the catalog, the rope was billed as, "a long umbilical cord. It connects you to any extra gear your belayer might have as well as provides access to the haul bag and all of its supplies."

In other words, it was really for hauling extra gear up to you when you were leading (or whatever). I don't think it was really designed for hauling a heavy pig, rappelling, etc.

Also, I'll bet the same rope is now billed as a 7+mm diameter. Was called 8mm, but, its darn small for an eight.

I've used one a few times, and had friends who used them a bunch. No more. Of course, I do have a 40 foot hunk of one that'll make a nice cord-a-lette...

Not very durable...to say the least.

Good for light hauling (as in a piece of gear). Good as a pull cord. That's about it.

Brian in SLC


smithclimber


Mar 25, 2004, 2:45 PM
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It may be of little value at this point, but:

I've hauled with an older 10.5mm dynamic before. It's OK.

I've jugged on (but not hauled with) an 8mm static, but it wasn't running over any edges. Worked fine (with Petzl Ascension ascenders).

I've done tons of double rope rappels using a 8/9mm rope as the second line. I've even used a 60m x 5mm tag line (no hauling) and then later did double rope rappels with the 5mm tag along with the 10.2 lead line.

My typical haul line is a Sterling 63m x 9mm static. The extra 3 meters can be helpful (if you like using the remaining haul line to lower out the pigs) as well as helping to ensure that you don't come up short on a rope stretching 60m pitch (i.e. you can still pull up enough slack in the haul line to get it into the pulley).


timpanogos


Mar 25, 2004, 2:55 PM
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Dang, the one test I did not do, was jugging that baby - if it's really a 7+ I might be hating life on a potential diagonal jug back to the anchor!

Since Its brand new heck Ill try it. I did not notice the bunching on rap. Anyone jugged a 7+ mil line? Ascender going to hold?

Umbilical cord Ill remember that its a life giving thing when Im crying for moma


karlbaba


Mar 25, 2004, 5:23 PM
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I don't think BD sells a static llne anymore. I sent my 8 mil trailine back to them when it turned out to be 175 feet instead of 200 feet. Came up short hauling on El Cap with it. Their customer service was superlative. They replaced it with, my choice, a 7.7 edgeproof ice twin by Beal. It's pretty light, I'm using it for a rap line but it's pretty bomber.

They did't have a static line to offer, but maybe that's changed

Peace

karl


brutusofwyde


Mar 25, 2004, 6:20 PM
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Their customer service was superlative.
karl

Yeah, too bad that their quality control wasn't that good, eh?

Heck of a place to find out your gear isn't what you were sold...


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