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chopper
Jan 28, 2004, 5:44 AM
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cleaning and doctoring.....whats the difference?
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catbiter
Jan 28, 2004, 5:47 AM
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Cleaning is good because it helps others because it helps others climb a once dirty climb. Doctoring is bad because you are trying to suite your own needs by making the climb easier. Did I answer that right?
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dynoguy
Jan 28, 2004, 6:09 AM
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what does doctoring mean?
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chopper
Jan 28, 2004, 7:14 AM
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i only ask this because i know some guys who are wondering why that cant climb better after 7 years of climbing but the love to chizzle thier boulder problems so they can complete them. really, i know the answer to it but im just wondering if anyone else thinks that this is bad.
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andy_reagan
Jan 28, 2004, 1:59 PM
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In reply to: what does doctoring mean?
In the book "Better Bouldering", John Sherman talks about repairing/cleaning/doctoring boulders. It's OK in his opinion if you have broken off two holds while making a first ascent to use some sort of extremely adhesive glue to glue BOTH holds back on. It becomes doctoring when you decide to leave one off because its easier to climb that way.
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climber49er
Jan 28, 2004, 8:11 PM
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I think chipping OR gluing stinks!
Take the rock on it's own terms. If you can't climb it without "enhancing" a hold, get stronger or just realise you can't do it. Someone will climb it eventually if it is climbable at all!
If a hold comes off, well, them's the breaks! If it was too weak to hold you it wasn't meant to be climbed that way. Sorry you missed out on that wonderful line but a lost hold means one of two things, it's easier or it's harder now. Is that so bad? You might think it makes the line "unclimbable", that may be true for now but what about years down the road?
Ugggg, big nasty globs of epoxy, chipped holds, YUCK!!!
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dynoguy
Jan 28, 2004, 9:02 PM
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In reply to: i only ask this because i know some guys who are wondering why that cant climb better after 7 years of climbing but the love to chizzle thier boulder problems so they can complete them. really, i know the answer to it but im just wondering if anyone else thinks that this is bad.
Find whatever they are chipping with and give them all a once over :twisted: . Its your obligation as a climber to protect the rock from jackass chippers such as these.
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mrmojorisin
Jan 28, 2004, 9:27 PM
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Anyone who chips a hold to be able to complete a route is a total pussy and a drain on the climbing community in general. Altering a rock that has been there for thousands of years just because of abject laziness and lack of skill is an abomination. This action is also very selfish because they are stripping everyone else of the opportunity to climb the route in its natural state.
If you have to chip a hold to be able to finish it you shouldn't even be climbing out doors because you have no respect for nature or the sport. Bouldering is all about overcoming your physical and mental limitations to interact with a part of nature that existed long before you, and will remain long after you are gone. If they can’t deal the rock in its natural state then maybe its time to go back to the gym were you can simply get a hex wrench and move the hold.
It doesn't surprise me at all that your friends climbing skills haven’t progressed they are not pushing themselves. Instead of practicing and becoming stronger they bring the route down to there level, is it really any wonder they aren’t better climbers. I just hope for their sake I don't ever see them out doing this because I will flip out on them
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andy_reagan
Jan 29, 2004, 3:28 PM
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In reply to: If you have to chip a hold to be able to finish it you shouldn't even be climbing out doors because you have no respect for nature or the sport. Bouldering is all about overcoming your physical and mental limitations to interact with a part of nature that existed long before you, and will remain long after you are gone. If they can’t deal the rock in its natural state then maybe its time to go back to the gym were you can simply get a hex wrench and move the hold.
Well said, brother.
Think
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dontfall
Jan 29, 2004, 3:52 PM
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have them chip come rock at a local crag near me and i will beat them with my driver. Freaking Sissy's.
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jonf
Jan 30, 2004, 6:52 AM
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Here in the gunks there have been some recent reports of chipping on some classic problems (I have not personally checked out if the chipping truly occured yet). Chipping can become a serious problem and strip many people from the opportunity of climbing some classic rock. Any chipping, no matter how remote, will not help decrease the amount of chipping in larger areas, and will most likely increase it.
Please, just have some self restraint and put the chisel down.
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bouldersdothebodygood
Jan 31, 2004, 4:35 AM
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a big part if not the biggest of climbing is the challenge. chipping is the most irresponsible thing possible. those guys should go back to the gym!!!
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drkodos
Jan 31, 2004, 4:51 AM
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In reply to: Here in the gunks there have been some recent reports of chipping on some classic problems (I have not personally checked out if the chipping truly occured yet). Chipping can become a serious problem and strip many people from the opportunity of climbing some classic rock. Any chipping, no matter how remote, will not help decrease the amount of chipping in larger areas, and will most likely increase it. Please, just have some self restraint and put the chisel down.
Somewhat ironic in the Gunks since all the climbs in the Uberfall area are the result of large scale chipping called blasting. When I hear people going berzerk over routes in that area, I just have to laugh a little. Almost every climb from the Katzenjammer block to Walter Mitty was blasted out to create the carriage road. Horseman is hardly a natural line, folks. The blast scars are still visible, and even used as holds on some of the climbs!
On a more serious note, which "classics" are you speaking off? For there are plenty of manufactured holds at that bastion of trad ethics, the Gunks.
Twilight Zone 5.13b has a few "improved" placements.
The Best Things in Life are Free aka: Jack Hammered has some "comfortized" holds.
The crux undercling on Retribution is a manmade scar. From a pin.
P-38 is so named because of the 38 pins used on the first ascent. Their subsequent removals and replacements have manufactured a fine 5.10.
Interested in hearing what classics at the Gunks you are referenceing, since almost all routes there have been doctired in one fashion or another, depending on ones perspective, of course.
In general, I think the whole "chipping" thing is a great topic for nOObs to dig their teeth into. I am confident that many of the same people that would beat down a chipper also herald Lynn Hill's ascent of the Nose as a great acheivement without ever understanding her accomplishment would not have been possible where it not for poeple scaring the rock. Pins were placed and removed, some many multiple times, in order to "improve" the holds.
Folks, do not misread this post. I do not advocate rock changes in order to facilitate the climbing experience.
I do however, realize that it happens much more than I used to think, and that I have surely benefitted from it in the sense that I have climbed (many times unknowingly) some great routes only because I had my fingers in an unnatural hold.
And to those that say there rock is above reproach as far as man made alterations? I humble suggest you have you heads up your rear ends, because modern climbing would be almost impossible without some type of rock alteration, even if it is just to create anchors.
As for the boulders, knowing the current crop of young guns as well as I do, I seriously doubt that the locals are practicing any type of route manufacturing. I have yet to see any evidence of it.
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jonf
Jan 31, 2004, 6:41 AM
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That posted seemed a little overly heavy on the gunks bashing (especially since u list it as one of your favorite areas in you profile). Also first off, many of the routes changed by the pins were done before clean climbing was widely practiced, and if it wasnt for Stannard and the gunks the clean climbing revolution wouldnt have happened as it did.
Also, in general I see the worst aspect of chipping as the intention associated with it. The blasting that occured before climbing had been done in the gunks should not be equated with chipping, even though it technically would mean that the lines are not completely natural. That blasting also only affects a small amount of the gunks ( not the Nears, Skytop, Millbrook, bonticuo..etc.)
The specific problems I was talking about are the boxcar arete (which according to some had been chipped earlier) and Venus in Scorpio (which was a natural line). I still stress that I have not seen the chipping first hand, and cant vouch for it being true.
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walllizzard
Mar 7, 2004, 10:13 AM
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Registered: Nov 11, 2003
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i do alot of bouldering here in south central PA. It is just common knowledge that if you climb around here problems change, holds break off after time, heck they can change over nite due to natural freezing and thawing. When u climb outside you accept the fact that a hold may come off when climbing or not be there the next season, thats nature for ya. I think it is irreprehensible for anyone to knowingly/ purposely chip/ break a hold just to make it suit their needs. Chipping holds goes against everything any true outdoorsman stands for!!
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novak89
Mar 8, 2004, 1:19 AM
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I ONLY climb with a chisel and a hammer. Most of the time, doctoring is the only way I can get up a route. It's cool, I feel like an artist, carving whatever I want into the rock.
I can't grip crimpers, so I usually chip them into jugs. Its so much easier. Why shouldn't the rock conform to my abilities.
I also bring my own hex tools to the gym.
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