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crackboy
Mar 10, 2004, 6:37 AM
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So its that time of the year when everyones mind starts dreaming of rock, and since i had some moeny come my way through REI dividend , birthday, so approval etc. i figured i would use it to fil out my aid rack.
i would like to try and do a wall this spring/summer probably something on washington column
definitly am going to pick up a set of ascenders but other that that i dunno what else,
maybe some hooks? what would you guys recomend as must haves for a personal rack?
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addiroids
Mar 10, 2004, 6:42 AM
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Take a look at Pete's article on his rack. It kind of goes over stuff. Yates or Metolius Adjustable daisys are nice. Maybe a set of hooks, 2 yates ladders, 1 roll of duct tape, one hammer (don't scrimp, get a good one - yes, you carry a hammer, even on clean walls, to clean nuts - yours or the "fixed" ones).
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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tim
Mar 10, 2004, 6:45 AM
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regarding ascenders, think about just getting one handled ascender and using a Croll or similar for the other. on long free-hanging jugs it is less work to use the frog system.
cam hooks are cheap and endlessly useful. on granite routes you cannot go wrong with 'em.
If Fish ever gets around to manufacturing Russians again, you might want to look into them.
I would not want to go back to using regular aiders, too much clutter when on free sections.
those are the only things I can think of that make any difference...
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crackboy
Mar 10, 2004, 6:51 AM
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well i probably should have mentioned i have aiders and daisies, just wanted to expand on that.
i have looked through the rack article and my eyes cross after a few minutes from all the nonsensical musings
thought about the croll as well but unless you can use that in a hauling system it might be more practical to go with the two ascenders for now.
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smithclimber
Mar 10, 2004, 7:24 AM
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In reply to: regarding ascenders, think about just getting one handled ascender and using a Croll or similar for the other. on long free-hanging jugs it is less work to use the frog system.
Tim, what are you thinking man? You may be right about the frog system being easier when you are doing free hanging jugs in space without the rope running through any gear, BUT have you completely forgotten that this is less that 10% of the way you use your ascenders on a wall?
Crackboy, the VAST majority of your time spent jugging on a wall is when you are cleaning a pitch (and therefore CONSTANTLY removing and replacing your ascenders on the rope), NOT on free hanging jugs out in space.
Trust me, you don't EVEN want to think about how much of a headache it would be to try and continually be taking a Croll off and then back onto the rope. You DEFINITELY want TWO HANDLED ascenders for cleaning and hauling wall routes. If you want to get a Croll as a 3rd one (for those free hanging scenarios, then fine), just don't get one as your main ascender!
Someone else chime in here and back me up on this. Paul (addiroids)? Anyone?
If you try to use any non-handled ascender as one of your two main ascenders I can virtually ASSURE you of having a miserable time on your wall in addition to coming back here and cursing Tim for telling you to do so.
Good luck.
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skiclimb
Mar 10, 2004, 7:56 AM
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I'll back you up on that...and for the bits of free hanging, even full pitches with party of three, two handles is plenty fine with adjustable daisies if your technique is decent...not worth wasting time rigging anything else.
can't go wrong with some small aliens, a hammer, assortment of pins, hooks, and most def some Camhooks.....oh yeah get as many diff types of beaks as you can get your hands on...
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timpanogos
Mar 10, 2004, 3:03 PM
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If your pitch was a non-overhanging, non-traversing pitch and you cleaned on rap - your 10% just went up (solo anyone?) - might as well use the croll.
If your pitch was a non-overhanging, non-traversing pitch and you are seconding – why in the hell would you ever want to undo your lower ascender? In fact, why in the hell would you remove your upper one in this case?
Ok, now you are on an overhanging/traversing pitch that loads the crap out of your gear above you as you clean; 1. Why in the hell would you not use a grigi on the bottom with a fifi for super easy cleaning? Or 2. use a grigi as TR and re-aid the thing?
I guess I’m not familiar with any hauling techniques that would require two handled ascenders? In fact, once again, using a grigri on your waist and getting right upside down and pushing down with your feet/legs works dandy (single handled ascender on free end, which is looped back to the anchor is great for pulling yourself back up).
oh yea, for your wish list - yates screamers - get some
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epic_ed
Mar 10, 2004, 3:32 PM
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Gri gri.
A compound pulley. The Protraxion is probably the best readily available on the market. Get a Kong Block Roll if you can find one.
A comfy harness is something you might want to consider. Yates makes a couple of great ones.
Invest in a good haul bag if you're going to be doing any grade V stuff. Metolius has popular haul bags for a reason, though you can find less expensive bags from Fish or BD. Generally, you get what you pay for.
Chest harness to rack gear -- again, Yates has a nice product. In fact, just go to this site and get real familiar with it:
http://www.yatesgear.com/
Also -- Several manufacturers make nice "wall bags." I have some in various sizes and styles from Fish, Yates, and Metolius. Metolius makes some very nice stuff sacks which are great for sorting/storing food:
http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/bigwallstuff.htm
The largest Fish wall bag makes makes an excellent rope bag, which is another thing you should consider. Rope management is crucial, and rope bags are items I consider a necessity. Yates also makes rope buckets -- check under the rescue gear section.
Ed
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skiclimb
Mar 10, 2004, 4:26 PM
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Tim...go do a big wall and you will find out why you really don't want to use your croll idea....it's an obstacle course up there when cleaning...constantly changing angle, cracks your feet want to slide into, lips you want to negotiate...having two ascenders, two daisies (adjustable) and an aider for each asceder is much more negotiable...oh yes did I mention the joys of cleaning squeeze chimneys/slots...
Also on a big wall you are practically pre set up for ascending this way due to aiding...all you have to do is attach your ascender to you daisy/aiders..and you are good to go...very quick, very adaptive to various situations.
BTW there is a really efficient system for ascending free hanging ropes that uses 3 ascenders...but it sure isn't great for walls.
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tedc
Mar 10, 2004, 4:30 PM
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In reply to: i have looked through the rack article and my eyes cross after a few minutes from all the nonsensical musings
If that didn't make sense to you then your money might be better spent on a lesson than on gear.
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timpanogos
Mar 10, 2004, 5:02 PM
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I partnered the Prow last May, Soled Moonlight Buttress last October, have been on prodigal son 2 times - yes I'm still a beginner, but have cleaned big walls both solo and partnered
Skiclimb said:
In reply to: it's an obstacle course up there when cleaning...constantly changing angle, cracks your feet want to slide into, lips you want to negotiate...
This is exactly why I'll hookup that grigri every time for cleaning (unless I totally cleaned on rap). The extra time spent to load up your grigri will pay for itself on the first loaded piece that you come to. My limited big wall experience has taught me that cleaning can be VERY PHYSICAL – fighting a loaded piece is like mini pig wrestling it will flat wear you out in a hurry – avoid this at all costs! The few seconds you saved hooking up is not worth the physical/time price you are going to pay on every loaded piece.
From a safety standpoint, two jugs, or 1 jug one grigri? Easy answer - this is also meaningful to me, especially when you are cleaning (jerking, leaning, pulling, thrashing about, removing upper jug etc.) ya, I’ve done that.
Chad
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smithclimber
Mar 10, 2004, 8:48 PM
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In reply to: Tim...go do a big wall and you will find out why you really don't want to use your croll idea....it's an obstacle course up there when cleaning...constantly changing angle, cracks your feet want to slide into, lips you want to negotiate...having two ascenders, two daisies (adjustable) and an aider for each asceder is much more negotiable...oh yes did I mention the joys of cleaning squeeze chimneys/slots..
He said it for me.... took the words right out of my mouth.
Tim, he's just starting out. He's not soloing (or cleaning on rappel)!
Once you get down the basic system using two handled ascenders, if you want to modify it to incorporate a Gri Gri or a different type of ascender, by all means go for it. Until you've done a few walls, you are going to have to take my word for it.
"A smart man learns from his mistakes...
a smarter man learns from the mistakes of others"
Do as you wish. You will either learn sooner or you will learn later.
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crackboy
Mar 10, 2004, 9:02 PM
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thanks ed that was the kind of stuff i was looking for.
probably going to shy away fro a haul bag until i get at least one wall under my belt to make sure i enjoy it enough to invest. plus i just got hired to be a guide so i can prodeal that sort of thing in a year
and the yates shield has been at the top of my to buy list since last year so moneys already allocated for that
whats a good assortment of hooks that will get me up most things? or pins for that matter
thanks for the advice
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iamthewallress
Mar 10, 2004, 9:07 PM
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In reply to: Crackboy, the VAST majority of your time spent jugging on a wall is when you are cleaning a pitch (and therefore CONSTANTLY removing and replacing your ascenders on the rope), NOT on free hanging jugs out in space. Trust me, you don't EVEN want to think about how much of a headache it would be to try and continually be taking a Croll off and then back onto the rope. You DEFINITELY want TWO HANDLED ascenders for cleaning and hauling wall routes. If you want to get a Croll as a 3rd one (for those free hanging scenarios, then fine), just don't get one as your main ascender! Someone else chime in here and back me up on this. Paul (addiroids)? Anyone?
Hey, Wes.
I'll back you up on part of it. I'll say a "significant portion" of the time you are using your jugs to clean the pitch. Much of the rest of the time you are using them to haul. Usually I find it more convenient to have two jugs on the line to do that job. Certainly, I'd want to be able to switch hands now and then over the course of a wall even if I was only using one jug for the hauls.
The "energy saving" frog systems are nice enough when you are hanging out in space...which is about 0.0001% of the time on Washington Column (where the original poster wants to climb). When you are on lower angle terrain, it's way more effecient to get up on your feet in your ladders (hanging from two jugs) and start hiking, using the wall as much as you can to step up.
Also, FWIW, I don't know of a single person who's going for a speedy ascent who doesn't use two jugs. It can be more work muscle-wise, but you'll move faster once you get it dialed. Most people don't get hosed on their first walls because they weren't physically up to the task...They either get overwhelmed or get snarled up in their circus of gear and end up moving too slowly. I would keep it as simple as possible even if means a bit more labor and add the energy-saving, system-complicating tricks into the mix later.
Melissa
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smithclimber
Mar 10, 2004, 10:13 PM
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In reply to: probably going to shy away fro a haul bag until i get at least one wall under my belt to make sure i enjoy it enough to invest. whats a good assortment of hooks that will get me up most things? or pins for that matter thanks for the advice
You will need a haulbag before you will need to get any pins. Virtually every wall you do will require a haulbag (unless you are going to "fix and fire" all of your walls). Far fewer walls will need pins. When you are starting out, you will want to stick to "clean" walls, so wait to get the pins. Buy the pins that you will need specific to a given route. Pins aren't like cams where two full sets always seems fitting. You'll waste a lot of money if you just arbitrarily start buying pitons. Wait until you are doing a route that needs pins, and then just buy the ones you need.
As far as cam hooks go: Get 2 medium Leeper cam hooks (you will use these most often). Possibly get 2 of the large Leeper cam hooks, but don't bother getting the micro cam hook.
As far as regular hooks go: Get 1 of each of the following: BD Cliffhanger, BD Grappling Hook, BD talon (or some other small bat hook), and possibly another BD Cliffhanger (which you will file into a "Pointed Cliffhanger"). Those 3 or 4 will be fine for many routes, but occasionally you may need 2 of the same type of hook (consult topo), but I would heed my piton advice and wait until you are doing a route that calls for 2 of a given hook before buying duplicates.
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tim
Mar 10, 2004, 11:03 PM
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In reply to: Tim...go do a big wall and you will find out why you really don't want to use your croll idea....
Actually I was on a wall this weekend, and bailed. So I'm not going to say "you're wrong" when you've done a bunch of Grade VI walls and I've got a 50-50 record on grade IV/V walls. Plus, I actually do own two handled ascenders and both of them usually seem to come with us on a wall. But I prefer cleaning with a chest ascender cause all I have to do is clip it to the locker I have going through my tie-in point anyways, cross a double-length sling over my back, and clip the top to that. If a pitch traverses a ton I'll just use the grigri. Not saying this is the Right Way but it has not made the difference between topping out and bailing for me, not yet at least. Other things have, but so far, not that.
In reply to: it's an obstacle course up there when cleaning...constantly changing angle, cracks your feet want to slide into, lips you want to negotiate...having two ascenders, two daisies (adjustable) and an aider for each asceder is much more negotiable...oh yes did I mention the joys of cleaning squeeze chimneys/slots...
I've cleaned some pretty awkward flares, but no squeezes yet. I'll believe you on this one; note however that there's nothing stopping you from using a croll as a handled ascender (by clipping a locker through the top hole). Probably not as optimal as a handled rig, but works in a pinch.
In reply to: Also on a big wall you are practically pre set up for ascending this way due to aiding...all you have to do is attach your ascender to you daisy/aiders..and you are good to go...very quick, very adaptive to various situations.
See here is where I feel like the difference is not that huge. I run a tangle with two adjustables, two aid-trees, and the cuffs for the Russians, and so far that setup has been as fast as I can make any setup for aiding. (I need to test less pieces and try to free more stuff near my free limit) But also I have been used to running a locker through the tie-in point on my harness and clipping into an 8 on the end of the rope, to avoid re-stacking at belays when leading in blocks. So for that type of setup, actually it's pretty simple to cross-over a double runner, clip it to the top of a chest ascender, and clip the bottom to the (tie-in|grigri) locker on my harness.
Maybe I'm going about this all wrong, but I have not had significant problems with speed while cleaning. Hauling, yes; leading, sometimes; but so far cleaning has not been what slowed me down. I'll defer to your experience, but these are my thoughts on the matter.
In reply to: BTW there is a really efficient system for ascending free hanging ropes that uses 3 ascenders...but it sure isn't great for walls. |
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crackboy
Mar 15, 2004, 6:14 AM
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So the most obvious thing for a upgrade in the aid rack is a good harness..
boiled it down to the shield vs the cadillac
i have hung in both and thought they were both supercomfortable.
originally leaning towards the shield but was concerned that it would be overkill for every day trad use since that will primarily be the bulk of my climbing
anyone care to chime in on freeclimbing in their shield or cadillac?
cheers
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smithclimber
Mar 15, 2004, 8:17 AM
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In reply to: So the most obvious thing for a upgrade in the aid rack is a good harness.. boiled it down to the shield vs the cadillac i have hung in both and thought they were both supercomfortable. originally leaning towards the shield but was concerned that it would be overkill for every day trad use since that will primarily be the bulk of my climbing anyone care to chime in on freeclimbing in their shield or cadillac? cheers
Both can definitely be used for general trad climbing, however, it's a bit of a trade off. I'd say the Cadillac is a bit better suited to general all around use (but will be a bit less comfy on big walls). Consider how long you did your "test hang", it wasn't for HOURS like you will on a wall.
The Shield will be more comfy on a wall (but slightly more bulky during general trad use).
Classic Catch 22... which is more important to you?
If you have another harness (which you almost surely already do) then I would suggest you go with the Shield. If you've got 2 harnesses, why not have each one well suited to their respective tasks?
If you are going to try to have ONLY one harness for every type of climbing (and why would you? Do you only wear ONE pair of shoes for EVERYTHING), then the Cadillac is a good choice.
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timpanogos
Mar 15, 2004, 2:56 PM
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When I first got into climbing, I got a BD starter kit – you know, chalk bag, harness, atc and binner. When I first got looking at aid, I got the Cadillac, which as I once put it – is a “Real Mans Trad Harness”. However, after some long hanging aid belays last session I swore off anything but a real wall harness and picked up a Yates Shield a few months ago.
I would still trad in my Cadillac, as the shield is heavy and overkill for trad – but I would not aid in my Cadillac again. BD starter harness is good for a partner in the gym.
Hope this helps.
Chad
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epic_ed
Mar 15, 2004, 3:41 PM
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How big of a guy are you? I'm a stocky bastard and wear my harnesses accordingly. The first wall I did I wore a Misty Titan, and it's billed as a good wall harness and a step up from the Cadillac. At the time, I was weighing about 185 lbs and I was still bruised around the hips after three days of hanging belays. That was the motivating factor to go with one of the Yates jobbies.
I bought the Yates Big Wall first, and like it for a number of reasons, but also bought the Shield last fall. I'm now checking in at 210+ lbs, and wouldn't think of ever going back to either Misty harness for a multi-day climb. They just don't have enough support for my big ass. I have worn out my Titan and recently replaced it with the Cadillac. It's an excellent trad harness for multi-pitch climbs for a guy my size, but again, I wouldn't even consider doing a wall in it.
As a side note, I have a friend who might weigh 150 lbs soaking wet. Two years ago he was climbing the Shield and took a 40 ft whipper in a all-day trad harness (can't remember which one, but I think it was a Misty) and really wrenched his back. He attributed the severity of his soreness to an inadequate harness and promptly bought a Yates Shield.
FWIW, I think the Yates Shield makes an excellent trad harness. It's not too bulky for me, but I still mainly use it just for aid because I don't want to wear it out faster than I have to.
Just some things to think about...
Ed
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crackboy
Mar 15, 2004, 9:02 PM
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Yea i probably fall into the skinny bastard category. its a catch 22 do you want the comfort or the agility.
and as far as the volume of me aiding, it will likley pale in comparison to the amount of trad climbing i will be doing in it.
so for me a comfortable harness that could do some walls in it would be nice. the gym near me has a decent proshop there and i think has the shield available as well as the cadillac so maybe they will let me climb around in them to get a feel.
what about the astroman for walls?
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coylec
Mar 15, 2004, 10:59 PM
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astroman for trad is delightful compared to a BD momentum. DELIGHTFUL I say. haven't taken it on a wall, mainly because i haven't taken myself on a wall either.
coylec
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smithclimber
Mar 15, 2004, 11:24 PM
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In reply to: what about the astroman for walls?
Dude, you are thinking in the wrong direction.
The Astroman is less comfy than the Cadillac. The Astroman makes a really nice trad harness, but I wouldn't consider doing a wall in it unless you are speed climbing and doing the wall really fast.
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diesel___smoke
Mar 16, 2004, 12:43 AM
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I'd take a big wall harness just for the odd looks you'd get from the 'sportos'...
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lambone
Mar 16, 2004, 4:25 AM
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The more plush your wall harness is the longer it takes for you to take a crap in the morning, period. Climb in a sporto harness, shut the hell up and move....who cares if you bleed, suck it up.
The hardmen used swami belts and were faster and more proficient than most clowns on the wall these days. Who the fuck cares what kind of harness you have, wory about the important things...like where to buy alien offsets.
This forum has gone to shit lately...bring PTPP back, at least he was somewhat entertaining.
Peace, Bone
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