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lstockett
Feb 25, 2004, 12:44 AM
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Trango is coming out with a new belay device. It's supposedly a better, smaller, lighter, cheaper replacement for the GriGri. I couldn't find a release date anywhere on the web so I emailed them. They hope to have it out by August 1. Just thought I'd share in case someone else was curious.
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moeman
Feb 25, 2004, 12:48 AM
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Pictures?
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tkambitsch
Feb 26, 2004, 5:49 PM
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Lookin the Dec 2003 Climbing Magazine on page 109 for a picture and brief description of the Trango Cinch. At the time it was being touted as available mid-winter. I'd love to see specs even more than a picture as I am thinking of buying one of those smaller diameter ropes that fall outside of the Gri-Gri's range. Another autolocking device from Anthron is also supposed to be out this spring. Tim
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russman
Mar 15, 2004, 9:05 PM
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I ran accross this post this weekend and searched Trango's site (still nothging on there about this), but I got my MGear catalog today and I saw it right off the bat...looks like you can order from MGear. I already added it to our Gear Guide--- Cinch hope to hear and see more about this soon. The Russman (grigri owner currently)
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tedc
Mar 15, 2004, 9:46 PM
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Maybe Petzl will come out with the Gri-Grini. (for smaller ropes) Like they did with the Reverso / Reversini.
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voltzwgn
Mar 15, 2004, 10:06 PM
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If you start to crank up the order via mgear it gives an expected ship date of 6/21/04. So it seems mgear may not have them in hand yet.
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imnotclever
Mar 17, 2004, 1:31 PM
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I can't wait for these to hit the market, looking for the price of Gri-gri's to fall. Why now though? Has a patent run out or something?
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casco
Mar 17, 2004, 2:14 PM
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The idea of autoblocking a climbing rope is not patented, or it did run out, cause the TRE Sirius also autoblocks the rope. In fact, I think itīs better, i own the two systems. itīs cheaper, lighter, dinamical, and can hold two ropes at a time.
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norushnomore
Mar 18, 2004, 9:47 AM
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Second that, tre is the way to go By the way, friend of mine just told me about an accident in JT Long story short guy took a lead fall and his belay partner (light girl) could not handle the breaking load via atc and let go. Broken back, hand and ribs Tre would have been a great help (but not gri-gri or cinch as they both no good for trad) G
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jimdavis
Mar 18, 2004, 7:38 PM
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Sorry, but if you let someone lead belay for you, who can't catch a lead fall...your asking for it. There are ways to get more friction out of belay devices. (i.e. 2 biners) You can only make climbing so idiot proof. But you can buy harnesses that have rated belay loops, dots on cam lobes that tell you it's ok to overcam them, belay devices you can use bad technique with, and carabiners that lock for you. I'll stick with my screw lockers, non mechanical belay devices, and Petzl harnesses, and BD cams.
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tedc
Mar 18, 2004, 8:17 PM
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In reply to: Second that, tre is the way to go By the way, friend of mine just told me about an accident in JT ......................... Tre would have been a great help (but not gri-gri or cinch as they both no good for trad) G BS. Gri-Gri would likely have saved this guy's ass (or back or whatever he broke). I say that is good, trad or not.
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utahwiregate
Mar 18, 2004, 10:25 PM
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In reply to: I'd love to see specs even more than a picture as I am thinking of buying one of those smaller diameter ropes that fall outside of the Gri-Gri's range. Tim, Sorry to rain on your parade, but the Cinch is going to be supporting the same diameter as the Gri Gri. The catalogue I just got the other day says for 9mm to 11mm ropes. Way to go Trango for developing something lower priced with this degree of potential cool! -Gate
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jimdavis
Mar 18, 2004, 10:48 PM
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If it goes down to 9mm even, that's more range than the Gri-Gri; they only go down to 9.7mm, and that might only be the newer ones.
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chossmonkey
Mar 18, 2004, 10:56 PM
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It's about time someone came out with an autolock that works with smaller ropes. As far as Gri-Gris not working for trad climbing its a bunch of crap. One of the climbing magazines (R&I or Climbing) just did a test and said as long as your belay is not static there is no problem. If the rope slips through a plate belay devise before lifting you off the ground you have bigger problems than gear ripping. On multi pitch tie yourself off so you have a little room to move when catching a fall. Clip it directly to the anchor for belaying the second. When rapping if your partener has one you can simul-rap saving time while backing up your rap. I've used my Gri-Gri for a long time on gear routes. I've ALWAYS believed the benifits far outweighed the risks.
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johnhenry
Mar 19, 2004, 7:13 AM
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Chossmonkey is right! It's time to rethink trad belay, folks. The "belay device slippage paradigm" is going the way of the sliding-X. Here is a good article to read: http://www.rockandice.com/index1.html Besides ease of use, there are certain situations when only an autolocking belay device would save your hide. For instance, a factor two fall on the belay is generally viewed as unstopable with all but an autolocking device. Check out Petzl`s excellent illustration of this potential disaster: http://www.petzl.com/petzl/SportConseils?MotRecherche=Quick+Search&Langue=en&Activite=15&Famille=13&Conseil=24&Produit=&SousFamille= Your "belay device slippage" equals skull and crossbones in Petzl`s diagrams of a factor two fall. With this new paradigm, only the weight of the autolocking belay device is the drawback and Trango has addressed this. The Trango Cinch looks like a beauty. Look forward to seeing it. Be safe. Rock on. john
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norushnomore
Mar 19, 2004, 10:16 AM
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There is huge number of problems with that article: 1. Dynamic belay during multipitch? Sure, right, pull your trad gear upwards so it all pops out 2. Got opposite peice because you are lighter then your partner (or because you don't want your gear to pop), out goes your dynamic belay option. 3. 55 foot out/140 pounds partner? Don't you hate this best case scenario secialists? Always plan for the worst: factor 2 fall right off a belay station: you will be jumping in the opposite direction of the pull, that would be very smart. and so on. But hey, what do I know ... I am not certifided nor write for R&I And by the way, good luck rappeling (or accending) with cinch, it can only handle one rope
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johnhenry
Mar 19, 2004, 12:44 PM
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Hmmm....
In reply to: There is huge number of problems with that article: 1. Dynamic belay during multipitch? Sure, right, pull your trad gear upwards so it all pops out 2. Got opposite peice because you are lighter then your partner (or because you don't want your gear to pop), out goes your dynamic belay option. 3. 55 feet out/ 140pounds partner? Don't you hate this best case scenario secialists? Always plan for the worst: factor 2 fall right off a belay station: you will be jumping in the opposite direction of the pull, that would be very smart. and so on. But hey, what do I know ... I am not certifided nor write for R&I And by the way, good luck rappeling (or accending) with cinch, it can only handle one rope Hey Amigo, did you read these articles??? In regard to the above: 1.)They are not oblivious to this because they, in fact, caution against it. One or two feet of extra slack in the system can make a huge difference. It is smart to slot a nut upwards at the beginning of a trad pitch anyway. 2.) I don't get it? You rig your cordolette with a piece for an upward pull and then clip the power point with slack. Also, maybe you missed the suggestion about using a Screamer. This would be best for your hanging belays. 3.)HOLY COW. Did you read the Petzl page? The factor two fall on the belay is precisely where your tube, plate, figure of eight, etc. devices will fail you and an auto-locking device will save your butt! Your last comments suggest that you might be out of touch. PROBABLY HALF THE PEOPLE ON EL CAP USE THE GRI GRI AS AN ASCENDER! You can indeed rappel and retrieve your rope on multipitch climbs with an gri-gri (and it would seem a Cinch) In fact, with two or three people you can rap. much faster. If this all seems very strange to you, consider that it is NEW SCHOOL. Anyhow, dont take this as a flame bro. We're all out to have fun. climb safe, john
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utahwiregate
Mar 19, 2004, 4:30 PM
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Just got an email from Jeff Sadler w/ Trango and the belay device is for 9mm to 11 mm. I stand corrected, it does have a better rope diameter range than the Gri Gri. -Gate
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chossmonkey
Mar 19, 2004, 10:02 PM
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[And by the way, good luck rappeling (or accending) with cinch, it can only handle one rope It's called simul-rappelling. That is were you rappel on one strand of rope and your partener rappels on the other, at, get this, THE SAME TIME!!!!Saving you much time (almost half) over taking turns when rappeling multiple pitches. With an auto lock you can let go at any time durring the rappel and untangle the rope, free stuck gear, or do what ever. I could go on and on. Just make sure to put the knot on the lighter persons side to keep the ropes from possibly slipping and sawing through the webbing. The Petzl catalog also explains (with pictures!!) how to rap on one strand of rope with the other unweighted and still be able to pull your rope. Which could be of use if the anchor seems a little sketchy (and you don't want both climbers weight on the anchor), you have three people, or you rope solo. I would try to explain how to rap on just one side but if the simul-rap is to hard to figure out I would just be wasting my time. Go find the Petzl catalog. Also how do you ascend with a figure-8 or plate type device? With an auto locker you can grab the anchor side and pull up, then pull through the slack with your brake hand. Or you can put an ascending knot on the anchor side and easily climb the rope in the same manner without needing to death grip the rope to go up. 8)
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jt512
Mar 19, 2004, 10:23 PM
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In reply to: It's about time someone came out with an autolock that works with smaller ropes. As far as Gri-Gris not working for trad climbing its a bunch of crap. One of the climbing magazines (R&I or Climbing) just did a test and said as long as your belay is not static there is no problem. If the rope slips through a plate belay devise before lifting you off the ground you have bigger problems than gear ripping. Nonsense. Expert belayers intentionally let rope slide through their belay device in order to produce a dynamic belay. -Jay
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jt512
Mar 19, 2004, 10:32 PM
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In reply to: Besides ease of use, there are certain situations when only an autolocking belay device would save your hide. For instance, a factor two fall on the belay is generally viewed as unstopable with all but an autolocking device. That statement is absurd on its face. If factor-2 falls were untopable without an autolocking belay device, where are all the dead bodies?
In reply to: Your "belay device slippage" equals skull and crossbones in Petzl`s diagrams of a factor two fall. If so, then you've selectively chosen conditions to produce that result. You can also choose conditions in which a grigri would cause the anchor to fail, whereas an ATC would not. -Jay
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jt512
Mar 19, 2004, 10:49 PM
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In reply to: There is huge number of problems with that article: 1. Dynamic belay during multipitch? Sure, right, pull your trad gear upwards so it all pops out Dynamic belaying will not cause the gear to pop out. My partners and I dynamically belay when appropriate (in fact, I will not climb anything near my limit with a partner who cannot dynamically belay), and the pieces don't come out.
In reply to: 2. Got opposite peice because you are lighter then your partner (or because you don't want your gear to pop), out goes your dynamic belay option. That's not true. You can dynamically with an ATC by letting the rope slip through the device. The technique, which you should practice before trying in a life-or-death situation, is to keep the brake side of the rope at about a 90-degree angle from lead strand. When the leader's weight starts to come onto the rope, smoothly move your hand into the brake position. You can let more or less rope slide through the device by adjusting your technique, as the situation dictates. Wear a glove.
In reply to: 3. 55 foot out/140 pounds partner? Don't you hate this best case scenario secialists? Always plan for the worst: factor 2 fall right off a belay station: you will be jumping in the opposite direction of the pull, that would be very smart. No, you won't be. You'll be jumping in the correct direction, but in a factor 2 fall, you wouldn't jump -- at least not with an ATC -- because the device will let rope slip through by design. A fall directly onto the belay is the most important case to have a dynamic belay. You are protecting the belay on which both your lives depend. -Jay
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mattm
Mar 19, 2004, 10:53 PM
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People should all check out the Beal impact force website and how it relates to dynamic belays http://www.impact-force.info/ Other things to consider Regarding the higher impact forces caused by grigris Accident in Taquitz caused by anchor failure Pulled anchor on DNB of MC Goran fall at Vantage caused by open gate failure - lower forces might not have resulted in failure Going way back - Ed Leeper wrote an article analyzing Paul Bovign's death on Thin Fingers at index - a static belay might have be part of the cause short story - grigri on bolts and bigwalls for very different reasons i make sure the importance of a "soft" catch is understoff by anyone who belays me
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jt512
Mar 19, 2004, 10:56 PM
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In reply to: i make sure the importance of a "soft" catch is understoff by anyone who belays me Thank god. Sometimes I think I've lost my mind around here. -Jay
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couloir
Mar 19, 2004, 10:58 PM
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"Sorry to rain on your parade, but the Cinch is going to be supporting the same diameter as the Gri Gri. The catalogue I just got the other day says for 9mm to 11mm ropes." Gri gri's are designed for 10-11mm ropes. Sorry to rain on your parade.
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