|
jt512
Mar 19, 2004, 11:09 PM
Post #26 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: 3.) HOLY COW. Did you read the Petzl page? The factor two fall on the belay is precisely where your tube, plate, figure of eight, etc. devices will fail you and an auto-locking device will save your butt! That is debatable. Your ATC (etc) won't "fail" you. It'll do what is designed to do, namely, let rope slip through to limit the impact force. -Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jhump
Mar 19, 2004, 11:13 PM
Post #27 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 7, 2002
Posts: 602
|
Parades are lame...let it rain.
|
|
|
|
|
sspssp
Mar 19, 2004, 11:28 PM
Post #28 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 1731
|
In reply to: You can let more or less rope slide through the device by adjusting your technique, as the situation dictates. Wear a glove. Wearing a glove certainly falls into the "good idea" category. As I personally wouldn't want anyone to try and give me a dynamic belay without one. It is also extremely rare that I have ever seen anyone belay with a glove. For those climbers that aren't willing to carry (and use) a glove (which at least at the moment seems to be the vast majority), I think it would probably be safer if they used a device that locked off, as opposed to a device that could slip, burn their hand, and cause them to let go.
|
|
|
|
|
hosh
Mar 19, 2004, 11:43 PM
Post #29 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 15, 2003
Posts: 1662
|
Just thought it'd be fun to jump in and add nothing important to the discussion... I like Reverso's and Gri-gri's. I'd be interested to see the new trango product, but I've never been hip on automatic belay devices. Yeah, I really like my Reverso.
|
|
|
|
|
johnhenry
Mar 20, 2004, 3:05 AM
Post #30 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 202
|
I respect your opinion Jay, but in this instance I will take the Petzl's word over yours. In regard to the factor two fall on the belay it states: "Stopping the fall becomes impossible with a figure-eight (huit) or belay plate (because of the severe burning that occurs) and difficult with an Italian Hitch. This risk is avoided by using the GRIGRI, but the impact force transmitted to the belayer is then higher." Why would you introduce dynamicism with the rope which could seriously burn your hand when your bodyweight can absorb the shock? Cheers, john
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Mar 20, 2004, 4:00 AM
Post #31 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: I respect your opinion Jay, but in this instance I will take the Petzl's word over yours. In regard to the factor two fall on the belay it states: "Stopping the fall becomes impossible with a figure-eight (huit) or belay plate (because of the severe burning that occurs) and difficult with an Italian Hitch. This risk is avoided by using the GRIGRI, but the impact force transmitted to the belayer is then higher." They also say that 21 m of rope will slip through the belay device. I find that hard to believe.
In reply to: Why would you introduce dynamicism with the rope which could seriously burn your hand when your bodyweight can absorb the shock? I don't know what you mean by your "bodyweight can absorb the shock." The most important issue is to reduce the impact force on the protection. You want to avoid pro pulling for obvious reasons. Dynamic belaying reduces the impact force, which reduces the chances that running pro will pull, which in turn reduces the chances of a fall directly onto the belay anchor. Furthermore, if a fall directly onto the belay anchor should occur, dynamic belaying reduces the chances that the anchor itself will fail. Factor 2 falls do happen and belayers have been successfully arresting these falls long before the invention of the grigri. I've never taken or caught a factor 2 fall, thankfully. Anybody here have? Did 21 meters of rope run slide through the belay device? -Jay
|
|
|
|
|
johnhenry
Mar 20, 2004, 5:06 AM
Post #32 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 202
|
There is no mention of amount of rope slippage on the Petzl link. kN stands for Kilo-newton. One kN equals 220# I think I am going to stop debating now with people who haven't correctly read the facts. Rock On, john
|
|
|
|
|
vawterclimber
Mar 20, 2004, 5:40 AM
Post #33 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 18, 2003
Posts: 38
|
I know that this is sort of off topic, but I recently purchased omega pacific's SBG II bleay device. It offers some great features. The thing is extremely light weight. It has one side tapered to a v for extra friction, and the other side a smooth U to allow lesss friction. I have belayed and raped from this guy and am very pleased with the results from both. When you take on a belay and lock off it is efforless. the frixction is so high you can "almost let go of the rope". Has anyone else used this guy, and what do you think?
|
|
|
|
|
chossmonkey
Mar 20, 2004, 6:52 AM
Post #34 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 1, 2003
Posts: 28414
|
In reply to: In reply to: It's about time someone came out with an autolock that works with smaller ropes. As far as Gri-Gris not working for trad climbing its a bunch of crap. One of the climbing magazines (R&I or Climbing) just did a test and said as long as your belay is not static there is no problem. If the rope slips through a plate belay devise before lifting you off the ground you have bigger problems than gear ripping. Nonsense. Expert belayers intentionally let rope slide through their belay device in order to produce a dynamic belay. -Jay I guess I should have said "If the rope slips with out you letting it". :roll: You can let rope slip through a Gri-Gri too. Just hold down the cam. It's also a great way to drop someone. The same could happen if you intentionally let rope slide through a standard belay device and it gets away from you. How do you always know when to be ready to casually let rope slip through while someone is falling? Granted, sometimes the leader knows they are in deep trouble and can warn you. But many times falls come very unexpectedly. If you can always let rope slip through intentionally and catch it, great. The big argument between old school belay devices and autolockers is that nonauto start to slip at about 3kn while autos start at around 9kn (these numbers are just off the top of my head, feel free to correct) . Roughly estimating that would be over 600 lbs and over 1800 lbs. The rope slipping is what is supposed to keep your gear from ripping. But if your rope starts sliping because there is a huge load on it how do you stop 600+ pounds of force with one gloved hand? I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm not saying everyone should start using autolockers. I'm just saying if you are more comfortable using a Gri-Gri there is no good reason not to when climbing on gear.
|
|
|
|
|
norushnomore
Mar 21, 2004, 10:00 AM
Post #35 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 4, 2002
Posts: 414
|
Jay, you took my points out of the context, I am not against dynamic belays, I am against trying dynamic belays while using gri-gri or ATC or cinch: I am a big fa of TRE: it will lock up automatically while unlike gri-gri it will still let rope slip just as ATC does. Best of both: you get dynamic belay and you don't need gloves (and you will have no problem handling that factor 2 fall off the belay station) As far as having enough slack to jump up while you have a piece for the upward pull? I guess possible, but you are risking throwing you belayer into a wall in front of him. Not a good idea IMHO. And we had that discussion on if you should clip thru the anchor or not. If you do you then you will double your forces on the anchor in the case of a fall. I prefer not to and instead make sure to be tied in short enough that fall force is transfered directly to the anchor Either way, what do I know, ignore my ramblings and climb safe.
|
|
|
|
|
brutusofwyde
Mar 21, 2004, 8:26 PM
Post #36 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2002
Posts: 1473
|
In reply to: I think I am going to stop debating now with people who haven't correctly read the facts. That is a totally ridiculous position to take. If you aren't willing to discuss your position with those of us who are completely ignorant of the topic at hand, and moreover unwilling to be enlightrened, we would be far less than justified in concluding that your own knowledge base is sadly lacking. Just because I look stupid, doesn't mean I'm not. Uhhhh... Did I say that right? Brutus
|
|
|
|
|
chossmonkey
Mar 21, 2004, 11:46 PM
Post #37 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 1, 2003
Posts: 28414
|
brutusofwyde wrote: That is a totally ridiculous position to take. If you aren't willing to discuss your position with those of us who are completely ignorant of the topic at hand, and moreover unwilling to be enlightrened, we would be far less than justified in concluding that your own knowledge base is sadly lacking. brutus Jonhhenry is right. There is no point in reponding to people who are unwilling even consider other ideas. There also are too many people who just want to post dumb crap. I'd rather spend my time responding to someone who will at least debate a subject instead of trying to start a flame war.
|
|
|
|
|
brutusofwyde
Mar 22, 2004, 2:02 AM
Post #38 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2002
Posts: 1473
|
In reply to: There also are too many people who just want to post dumb crap. uhhh... Busted. :oops:
|
|
|
|
|
lebeau
Mar 22, 2004, 4:38 AM
Post #39 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 10, 2004
Posts: 61
|
I'm really excited for the cinch to come out. The Gri-Gri has been the only auto-locker for 10 years. It's about time for something, smaller, lighter and less expensive. Everyone should save-up for one of these. Trango is introducing some great stuff this year! Mark
|
|
|
|
|
johnhenry
Mar 22, 2004, 10:22 AM
Post #40 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 28, 2002
Posts: 202
|
Due to Brutus's nudging above, I have continued with the discussion of dynamicism here: http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=676983#676983 Sorry. I always hope to keep a good attitude. 8) I am looking forward to seeing the Cinch!!! Rock On, john
|
|
|
|
|
bigga
Mar 22, 2004, 11:31 AM
Post #41 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 25, 2002
Posts: 365
|
Take a look here, thay have it. http://www.mgear.com/pages/product/product.asp/level1_id/16/level2_id/24/level3_id/517/item/640518/level2_title/Hardware/level3_title/Belay+and+Descent
|
|
|
|
|
mheyman
Mar 22, 2004, 1:33 PM
Post #42 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 25, 2002
Posts: 607
|
In reply to: I'm really excited for the cinch to come out. The Gri-Gri has been the only auto-locker for 10 years. It's about time for something, smaller, lighter and less expensive. Everyone should save-up for one of these. Except for the SRC, the TRE' and others not as readily avaiable in the US. Come to think of it I've owned an SRC for almost ten years. I am not telling anyone to use or buy one. I don't use mine. But, they are both light and inexpensive and can provide a dynamic belay.
|
|
|
|
|
cantbuymefriends
Mar 22, 2004, 1:58 PM
Post #43 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2003
Posts: 670
|
In reply to: But if your rope starts sliping because there is a huge load on it how do you stop 600+ pounds of force with one gloved hand? You don't! That's why you use a braking device...
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Mar 22, 2004, 9:56 PM
Post #44 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: It's about time someone came out with an autolock that works with smaller ropes. As far as Gri-Gris not working for trad climbing its a bunch of crap. One of the climbing magazines (R&I or Climbing) just did a test and said as long as your belay is not static there is no problem. If the rope slips through a plate belay devise before lifting you off the ground you have bigger problems than gear ripping. Nonsense. Expert belayers intentionally let rope slide through their belay device in order to produce a dynamic belay. -Jay I guess I should have said "If the rope slips with out you letting it". :roll: That would still be an incorrect statement. Conventional belay devices let rope slip through by design. It is not hard to stop a fall when rope runs through the device, at least not if you're wearing a glove.
In reply to: You can let rope slip through a Gri-Gri too. Just hold down the cam. It's also a great way to drop someone. Not safely you can't. A grigri doesn't provide enough braking force with cam open.
In reply to: The same could happen if you intentionally let rope slide through a standard belay device and it gets away from you. If you know what you are doing it won't get away from you.
In reply to: How do you always know when to be ready to casually let rope slip through while someone is falling? Granted, sometimes the leader knows they are in deep trouble and can warn you. But many times falls come very unexpectedly. I don't know what you mean by "casually" in this context. Also, it's a little misleading to say you let rope though "while" they are falling. You let rope thru as their weight comes onto the rope. If you are watching your partner, he shouldn't have to warn you that he is about to fall, and you should be able judge whether the fall calls for a dynamic belay. Generally, any fall on vertical to overhanging terrain on which ledges or the gound are not factors should be dynamically belayed. If you're on some low-angle trad route and you can't see your partner, about all you can do is lock off the belay device and hope for the best.
In reply to: If you can always let rope slip through intentionally and catch it, great. The big argument between old school belay devices and autolockers is that nonauto start to slip at about 3kn while autos start at around 9kn (these numbers are just off the top of my head, feel free to correct) . Roughly estimating that would be over 600 lbs and over 1800 lbs. The rope slipping is what is supposed to keep your gear from ripping. But if your rope starts sliping because there is a huge load on it how do you stop 600+ pounds of force with one gloved hand? I think you are misunderstanding the relevant physics. The belay device together with your brake hand provides 600 lbs of braking force, which is what slows down and eventually stops the falling climber. If you think of it that way, does it sound any easier to stop the fall? The only way you're going to lose control of the rope is if you let go. -Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Mar 22, 2004, 10:00 PM
Post #45 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: There is no mention of amount of rope slippage on the Petzl link. The amount of rope that supposedly slips through is one of the results that the Petzl fall simulator gives. -Jay
|
|
|
|
|
david.yount
Deleted
Mar 22, 2004, 11:18 PM
Post #46 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
In reply to: I know that this is sort of off topic, but I recently purchased omega pacific's SBG II bleay device. It offers some great features. The thing is extremely light weight. It has one side tapered to a v for extra friction, and the other side a smooth U to allow lesss friction. I have belayed and raped from this guy and am very pleased with the results from both. When you take on a belay and lock off it is efforless. the frixction is so high you can "almost let go of the rope". Has anyone else used this guy, and what do you think? Omega Pacific SBG-II belay/rappel device is a nice design. It is a tuber style with a stiff neck, unlike the BD ATC which uses a flexible wire to attach to the belay biner. The solid aluminum neck has a hole in the end to attach it to the belay biner. You can rig this device like a Figure-8, it's your choice. It has deep v-notches in one side like the Trango [Jaws] (but far lighter), definate increase in friction, it's your choice. There is a second hole in the neck. If you attach the device through this hole to the belay biner it increases rope friction significantly. You can belay 7.6mm twins safely with this tuber (unlike most all other tubers, except the Marshall which is designed for double and twin rope diameters but cannot fit a 10.2mm and so has lower utility than the SBG-II). It's your choice. And you can safely and easily rig for a single-line rappel by clipping the second hole and using the v-notch side for the brake rope. It's your choice. David.
|
|
|
|
|
mheyman
Mar 23, 2004, 12:28 AM
Post #47 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 25, 2002
Posts: 607
|
In reply to: Omega Pacific SBG-II belay/rappel device is a nice design. Guess if you like it is.
In reply to: It is a tuber style with a stiff neck, unlike the BD ATC which uses a flexible wire to attach to the belay biner. The solid aluminum neck has a hole in the end to attach it to the belay biner. Yuck.
In reply to: You can rig this device like a Figure-8, it's your choice. ?? Why would i want want to do that. OK maybe if someone were shooting at me, or if my ropes were icy.
In reply to: It has deep v-notches in one side like the Trango Pyramid (but far ligher), definate increase in friction, it's your choice. Heres what got me writing Trango Pyramids do not have v-notches. Perhaps you were thinkng of the Trango Jaws. The JAWs and Pyramid both weight 68gm. An SBG weighs 77. The SBG is heavier than either of these Trango products. There are easy enough ways to increase fiction with any tuber if you need it.
|
|
|
|
|
david.yount
Deleted
Mar 25, 2004, 12:26 AM
Post #48 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
In reply to: In reply to: You can rig this device like a Figure-8, it's your choice. ?? Why would i want want to do that. OK maybe if someone were shooting at me, or if my ropes were icy. You can rig the SBG-II like a Figure-8 for a single line; I don't believe you can rig two lines this way. Well, you could, but the lines would cross twice, I'm not sure how the friction or the modulation of friction would be. Rigging a single-line in Figure-8 mode can be done is two different ways and these two rigging setups add to a total of 4 single-line rap setups using the SBG-II. Depending on the diameter of your line (7.6mm - 10.5mm), the condition of your rope (dry-damp-wet-iced), the weight of the climber, any additional weight (multi-day backpack, haul bag) the SBG-II offers 4 single-line rappel setups with different friction. It's your choice. Consider it an added benefit with this tuber-style belay/rap device. You may never use this advanced technique and the device is still price/weight/feature competitive with other tubers.
In reply to: In reply to: It has deep v-notches in one side like the Trango [Pyramid] (but far lighter), definate increase in friction, it's your choice. Heres what got me writing Trango Pyramids do not have v-notches. Perhaps you were thinkng of the Trango Jaws. The JAWs and Pyramid both weight 68gm. An SBG weighs 77. The SBG is heavier than either of these Trango products. There are easy enough ways to increase fiction with any tuber if you need it. The Trango JAWs has V-notches in one side, at first I wrote Pyramid by mistake. The SBG-II offers several ways to increase friction and none of these ways involves extra gear or extra weight beyond the rap device. The JAWs provides only one way to increase friction, and if you wanted to increase friction with the JAWs or any other tuber device to equal the maximal friction available with the SBG-II the resultant setup would weigh far more than the SBG-II. Creative minds could easily use this device as an emergency rigging plate. David.
|
|
|
|
|
duality4569
Dec 24, 2004, 4:24 PM
Post #49 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 21, 2004
Posts: 106
|
JUST A KNOCKOFF OF THE AMAZING GRI-GRI!
|
|
|
|
|
wingnut
Dec 24, 2004, 4:33 PM
Post #50 of 51
(7178 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 754
|
you can see one at the gear shop on the last page of belay devices. ____________ I refuse to accept your reality, and substitute my own.
|
|
|
|
|
|