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ouflyboy9
Mar 22, 2004, 3:39 PM
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I was wondering how many of you agreed or disagreed with Simon's decision. I'm still on the fence about it. However, I do most of my climbing with my little bro and I don't think that I could have done it.
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unabonger
Mar 22, 2004, 3:43 PM
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I bet your brother could, though.
Simon did exactly what he had to do. Quit focusing on that moment and consider the mistakes that got them in that predicament in the first place.
The Zing!Bonger
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ouflyboy9
Mar 22, 2004, 4:15 PM
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Good Point bonger, but only my bro could make that decision. It's sounds like you either don't like your little brother or do not have one. But it's hard to say they were making mistakes. Yes they made some poor decisions, but decisions need to be made. How were they to know it was a mistake? no one had ever been where they were. I guess only in hindsight you could see that a decision turned out to be a mistake!!
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justin
Mar 22, 2004, 4:18 PM
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I think this one's been hashed about a bit but there was no point in them both going over. In hindsight, it would have been a good idea to look in the crevass. Perhaps he was expecting to see his friends mangled corpse in there.
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straightedgeteen
Mar 22, 2004, 4:19 PM
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I saw this with my climbing partner, we both decided we would have done it, it must have been hard to do but i would have done it becuase he went above and beyond what he was suposed to do,
And the Burning of the Clothes was something that i prolly would have done too because my climbing partner and I are close and it would have been tough.
This movie is also very climber oriented .... espically with the death comments, i find climbers talk alot about death atleast i do.
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cantbuymefriends
Mar 22, 2004, 4:19 PM
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As you say yourself, decisions need to be made, and how were they to know it was a mistake?
So, what's your point with trying to judge whether the decision was right or wrong, from the security and comfort of your computer chair?
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tomchaps
Mar 22, 2004, 4:21 PM
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Well, Joe readily admits that they made a few elemental and avoidable mistakes, like not bringing along enough fuel to make water, which forced them to keep going when they should have spent another night in a snow cave, for example.
And, Simon's decision was obviously the correct one. The amazing thing is that he realized it, since it is hard to conceive of a situation where cutting the rope could be the right thing to do.
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climbjs
Mar 22, 2004, 4:23 PM
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In reply to: As you say yourself, decisions need to be made, and how were they to know it was a mistake? So, what's your point with trying to judge whether the decision was right or wrong, from the security and comfort of your computer chair?
Nicely put. The trouble here is that who knows what we would do in that situation? Unless we're there, in their condition, having suffered the same setbacks (mildly put) and dilemas that Joe & Simon did, it is impossible to say. We can make moral judgements about what happened, but morality and reality are different. They both did what they did and had to do.
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grayhghost
Mar 22, 2004, 4:39 PM
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there is never a situation in which you should cut the rope.
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ouflyboy9
Mar 22, 2004, 4:43 PM
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I never said the decision Simon made was right or wrong, and I pass no judgement on his decision. Just like climbjs said, I would have to be put in that situation before I would really know what I would do. I respect Joe for standing beside Simon's decision. I was just wondering what other climbers thought on the decision. I didn't think I was opening the door to have my own morals questioned!!
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hikerken
Mar 22, 2004, 4:47 PM
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why do you say that? Just trolling? :roll:
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grayhghost
Mar 22, 2004, 4:59 PM
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cutting the rope should not even be an option. simon should have lowered/slipped down the slope as far as he could and gotten joe to the ground. he should have tried to save his partner as much as he could.
cutting the rope was a decision made out of fear for his own life.
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robgordon
Mar 22, 2004, 5:04 PM
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did anyone else feel like they were watching Wallace and Gromett every time Simon started talking?
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studuk2000
Mar 22, 2004, 9:11 PM
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the way i see it is that simon had two choices, one life or two, the fact that it was his own wasn't really that important. i know that he made the right decision and if i had been on the wrong end of that rope i would want my partner to make that decision. admittedly i would only want them to cut the rope if they had no other options but it seems pretty pointless sacrificing their own life with mine just because they didnt want to cut the rope.
in the cold light of day it does seem really cold and callous but extreme situations call for extreme measures and they didnt have the luxury of hindsight!
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petsfed
Mar 22, 2004, 9:32 PM
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In reply to: I was wondering how many of you agreed or disagreed with Simon's decision. I'm still on the fence about it. However, I do most of my climbing with my little bro and I don't think that I could have done it.
I read the book a long time ago. And all of Simpson's subsequent books. Waiting for it to arrive in Cheyenne (or here) so I can go see the movie.
All (I cannot stress that enough) of my safety training has been under a triage assumption. Minimize risk. That is, if the rescuer will likely get killed during the rescue, its probably not worth it. Moreover, Yates knew full well that there was no way to help Simpson at that point. He lacked the gear to pull him back up and there was nowhere to lower Simpson to. But I suppose yes, we can second guess the decision of one man some dozen years after the fact, from the comfort of our computer chairs, claiming "I would do this, or I would do that" but until you are put in a true life and death situation, you will never truly know will you? In such a situation, you will (and this much is for certain) rely on your experience, your training, your foresight, and your will power (or lack thereof) and then you will see what will be done.
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slablizard
Mar 22, 2004, 9:58 PM
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In reply to: cutting the rope should not even be an option. simon should have lowered/slipped down the slope as far as he could and gotten joe to the ground. he should have tried to save his partner as much as he could. cutting the rope was a decision made out of fear for his own life.
Exactly what I was thinking.
I wasn't there thoug.
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hikerken
Mar 23, 2004, 3:45 AM
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In reply to: cutting the rope should not even be an option. simon should have lowered/slipped down the slope as far as he could and gotten joe to the ground. he should have tried to save his partner as much as he could. cutting the rope was a decision made out of fear for his own life.
This is an amazing assertion. I can only assume, by this statement that you have no significant mountaineering experience, certainly not in steep snow. That being the case, I could understand why you would think that this might be possible.
He had ALREADY lowered Joe as far as he could. They could not communicate, they were in a major storm.
"slipping down the slope" They were on a very steep snowfield, the snow was the consistancy of powdered sugar, and there was a lot of it. There would have been no way to arrest/control the slide with an axe, and once the two got sliding, there would have been no way to stop. Remember that with NO movement, and with a dug-out position, Simon could not maintain position.
There were TWO people there, and neither of them thinks that there was another reasonable option.
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jefferson
Mar 23, 2004, 3:49 AM
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The guy who's rope was cut and had to drag himself 7 miles across an ice-field thought the decision was the right one...'nuff said!
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bighigaz
Mar 23, 2004, 4:10 AM
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That whole situations was incredible, and I have no right to decide whether or not the actions taken were the best at the time, HOWEVER...
It is quite clear in hindsight that if the rope had not been cut, both of those climbers probably wouldn't be here today... teathered together, Simon's fall would have been twice that of Joe's, consequently he would probably have pulled Joe the rest of the way down as he flew into the crevasse... and who knows how far that would have been? I'm willing to bet they'd both be dead today if Simon had not cut the rope. They both had another chance at life as a result...
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truffalatree
Mar 23, 2004, 4:24 AM
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Sitting in a movie theater, in a warm and cozy environment, with the prospects of sleeping in a warm bed later that night might skew one's judgement but I think that we all agree that no one was there, no one could make that decision but simon.
I think that the reality and the results speak for themselves. In the end, it is a stoic and epic tale about two men who come down from a mountain that they, at one point believed, they would never leave. They both lived. I think that says it all.
Had Simon chose differently, or had either of them made different decisions earlier on, things may have been different. but it is clear that with the decision he made, they both lived. With a different decision, we may have never heard their story and perhaps we would all have to find something different to ponder as we stare at our screens, because neither would have survived.
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climbingnurse
Mar 23, 2004, 4:29 AM
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If you are willing to hold onto moral absolutes like "never cut the rope" under any and all circumstances you should do us all a favor and jump into a crevasse.
There are exceptions to every rule. Failure to see this is (at least in my opinion) a MAJOR character flaw. This sounds weird, but I don't think I'd want to tie into a rope with someone who was not willing to cut it if the situation arose....
That said, if we are hanging from 3 bomber cam placements on a nice warm day out cragging on desert sandstone... You damn well better not cut the rope on me! But that's a whole other movie. :roll:
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micahmcguire
Mar 23, 2004, 4:40 AM
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having been dragged down a few steep mountain slopes on the end of a rope, I can safely say that the decision was correct given the situation. I would also agree that it sounds as though Grayghost has no mountaineering experience at all, otherwise he would know that mountains are never as safe or predictable as roadside sport climbs, and that situations in which climbers have to make those "all for one or one for all" kinds of decisions do come up on rare occasion. I've had friends who've died in the mountains, who if they had been able to cut themselves free of their falling party, would still be alive today. Mountain accidents are seldom predictable, and a mountain climber seldom falls on a "bombproof" anchor. Snow anchors are pretty sketchy, not like rock anchors; and more often than not, a fall will endanger more than just the person falling, but everyone on the rope.
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jookyhead
Mar 23, 2004, 4:52 AM
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In reply to: cutting the rope should not even be an option. simon should have lowered/slipped down the slope as far as he could and gotten joe to the ground. he should have tried to save his partner as much as he could. cutting the rope was a decision made out of fear for his own life.
He did try to save his partner as much as he could could. And yes, obviously, he also did cut the rope for fear for his own life. I dare say you need to leave the gym, get some training/common sense, and then possibly get yourself out on the side of a mountain and see what it's really like.
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fenix83
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Mar 23, 2004, 5:07 AM
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This is somewhat reminiscient of the situation that gave way to the Alive book/movie. On the one hand you have some of the most deeply ingrained moral/ethical standards (cutting the rope/eating human flesh) and on the other a certain death situation... No one can really say what they would do unless they were actually in that situation.
I think it is a lot more valuable to analyze what they might have done differently (their mistakes, if you choose to call them that). not to judge them, but to learn from tham and avoid them in the future. We also need to learn from what they did right, and in my opinion the single most important factor in their survival was the fact that they were simply not willing to die.
Another thing I find very interesting is that if I remember correctly Joe said he would have cut Simon loose too, but he is not sure if he would hae been able to cut himself off if he had the only knife, even if he thought that was the right thing to do. Interesting insight into the human mind; this unrelenting desire to live kept him alive in the end, but might have killed both of them if he had the only knife...
JMHO
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rickvena
Mar 23, 2004, 5:12 AM
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I'm amazed we are all so obsessed with the "to cut or not to cut" over-discussed concept. More interesting, from the film at least, was Joe's inability to explain what made him go on. So many times we hear people say that an "epic" experience has taught them about their limits; Joe seemed to imply that he learned no such lesson. Instead, he implied that the person he used to be died on that mountain.
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