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acrophobic
Mar 24, 2004, 4:44 AM
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As it SIPE.
I was in to get my free tire rotation today and picked up a booklet on how siping your tires increases traction and grip on the road and ice.
http://www.discounttire.com/images/afterSiping.gif
Basically 90 degree slices are made into the treads. This is said not to reduce the tire life, and no rubber is removed. However, now instead of one large block of rubber on a tread, you have 4 or 5 mini blocks. ON uneven surfaces, each mini block sinks into the road to get a better fit, and "fans" out a bit. For example, if one Tread was laying across a pebble, you would get an air space between the hight of the pebble and the road, due to the single block on rubber laying dagonnaly across it. With Siped tires, you woudl have a mini-tread on the pebble and another right next to it flush with the ground.
A was thinking if this was done on a lesser scale to climbing shoes, you would have the ultimate slab climbing shoe, for precision placement.
Anyone heard of this?
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breaksnclimbs
Mar 24, 2004, 5:54 AM
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I worked at Discount tire once and they had me sipe tires,
never heard anyone trying it on climbing shoes but now I'm
gonna before my next resole
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ajoys
Mar 24, 2004, 6:15 AM
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didn't somebody once make a pair of shoes with a bunch of small metal spikes on the front of the shoes in the rubber. I remember reading that after they went and climbed on a prototype they shelved the project because it made the climbing so easy it wasn't really free climbing any more.
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smithclimber
Mar 24, 2004, 6:42 AM
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I think this is a somewhat interesting topic.
I remember reading about "siping" the last time I went in for tires too.
On one hand it sounds like it might help, but the other part of my brain says "if it's so good for traction, then why don't they 'sipe' the tires on Indy cars?" However, Indy car tires ("slicks") are smooth like climbing soles.
Maybe they actually do "sipe" those Indy tires, but we just can't tell.
It would be interesting to see some factual evidence one way or the other.
Anyone ever work for the IRL?
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spoon
Mar 24, 2004, 7:54 AM
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My father told me that when he used to climb back in the day they would cut x's into their smooth soled (not climbing) shoes with a razor blade to help them stick to the rock.
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hyhuu
Mar 24, 2004, 12:57 PM
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I believe the soft ruber on climbing shoes does the same job. It deforms and fills in or wraps around whatever depression, holes, crystal etc. Siping might make the soft ruber prone to tearing from the shearing forces.
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traddad
Mar 24, 2004, 1:07 PM
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In reply to: I believe the soft ruber on climbing shoes does the same job. It deforms and fills in or wraps around whatever depression, holes, crystal etc. Siping might make the soft ruber prone to tearing from the shearing forces.
Yup. My thoughts too. On climbing shoes (as on racing tires) it's the sticky stuff you want to expose. I believe resins are impregnated into the rubber and every time you wear a little rubber off, you expose more resin. This resin evaporates so if you don't use your shoes for a while, you might want to sand 1/4 mm off to expose fresh rubber. Verm has a great treatment of this issue in "Better Bouldering".
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sarcat
Mar 24, 2004, 2:55 PM
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Why don't you just spray some of that sticky stuff recievers use to catch footballs with onto your shoes between each pitch or so? Just dangle a can next to your chalk bag....
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lokionnitrox
Mar 24, 2004, 3:27 PM
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I'm of the mind, with tires, that siping is just like throwing money down the drain. The actual benefits that you recieve are far fewer than the costs in tires, and from what I've heard, durability of the tire themselves.
As for climbing shoes, Indy Cars are good analogy. The slickness creates friction which is where the traction comes from. By siping (creating air space) you are actually DECREASING the Force of Friction (FF). Remember Physics Force X Distance = Power. From what I'VE seen, any discrepancies in the ability of the above equation to function be it from divots created by uneven shoe wear, dirt/leaves, and I'm guessing tiny air spaces created by siping, are going to decreace the overall distance (when your foot slips into the smear) or amount of rubber available to create friction.
My other question is; with as soft as shoe rubber is, wouldn't it increase the ease with which wear occurs on your shoes to have lots of tiny cuts made in the shoe?
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luigi
Mar 24, 2004, 3:35 PM
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Actually Force X Distance= Work, power is over time: power= work/time.
just my two cents worth.
Siping doesn't really help with grip it just helps with tread life, it lets the rubber expand to release energy, as opposed to not letting it expand and wearing down the tread.
luigi
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acrophobic
Mar 24, 2004, 3:53 PM
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Well my reasoning that tires on Indy Cars are smooth is becuase at the rate they accelerate and spin, any irregualities in the tire would get ripped right off from the force it travels over the road. Here it is done on another racing tire:
http://www.hoosiertire.com/groovy.HTM
As for traction, it was said to be proven to have better traction on ice than studs or non-siped tires.
Siping is a technique first patented in the 1920's by a man named John Sipe who came up with the idea of putting razor cuts in his shoes to give him better traction.
They question is now, is the rubber on soft sole shoes (moccasyms for example) soft enough that it moulds into any irregularities by itself.
Would be interesting to try right befor a resole or older shoes.
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aikibujin
Mar 24, 2004, 5:19 PM
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Since we are throwing equations around, I'll throw in this:
Frictional force = normal force x coefficient of friction (k)
Coefficient of friction: A constant, but it's different for different materials, it has to be determined
Normal force: the component of force "normal" (perpendicular) to the surface
When we are talking about using the shoes on a slab, the normal force would be the component of your weight (W) perpendicular to the slab. Let's say the angle of the slab is A, the normal force would be: W sin (90 - A), and the frictional force would be: kW sin (90 - A)
Of course, all this is assuming I remembered my high school physics correctly...
:?
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j.bl
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Mar 24, 2004, 7:06 PM
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I've got a pair of climbing shoes that were 'siped'. It's the "One sport - Burn out' They stopped making them about a year ago, when Millet took over One sport. I can't say the grooves created more friction. Stealth rubber or Mad rubber works far better.
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granitehalo
Mar 24, 2004, 7:22 PM
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5.10 sells a sipped shoe called the Splash. It's not for climbing though.
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hex
Mar 24, 2004, 7:44 PM
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Right somebody who has an old pair of shoes lying around "sipe" one of the shoes. Wear the pair on some slabby climb and see if the siped shoe is better than the non siped shoe...
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overlord
Mar 25, 2004, 8:46 AM
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if that would really be good for traction, i think all racing cars would have thei tyres siped.
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david.yount
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Mar 25, 2004, 9:53 PM
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In reply to: if that would really be good for traction, i think all racing cars would have thei tyres siped.
Well, maybe, maybe not. As stated in the Hoosier page...... siping and grooving all depend on the type of track, the type of car, and the type of race [wether a qualifying laps or the actual race laps].
David.
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david.yount
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Mar 25, 2004, 10:04 PM
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In reply to: I believe the soft ruber on climbing shoes does the same job. It deforms and fills in or wraps around whatever depression, holes, crystal etc. Siping might make the soft ruber prone to tearing from the shearing forces.
If the sipe cuts are too deep it does indeed seem like catastrophic rubber wear will occur. On the other hand, if the sipes were appropriately deep catastrophic wear might not be encouraged and traction might be enhanced.
As far as classical physics..... the final equation is accurate for an idealized model, but rock shoe rubber smearing on rock surface is totally beyond an idealized model. The sipes cut latitudinally (side to side) may present mini edges to the rock surface as the climber pushes downward.
We're not talking about normal force here (the component of the climber's weight that is pushing directly perpendicular to the rock surface). We're talking about how to get any bit extra grip while pushing parallel to the rock surface. As you delicately smear up some 5.10 horror show from the 60's each latitudinal sipe may give you just a wee bit extra grip as your shoe is want to slowly butter downward....
David.
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hyhuu
Mar 26, 2004, 2:05 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I believe the soft ruber on climbing shoes does the same job. It deforms and fills in or wraps around whatever depression, holes, crystal etc. Siping might make the soft ruber prone to tearing from the shearing forces. If the sipe cuts are too deep it does indeed seem like catastrophic rubber wear will occur. On the other hand, if the sipes were appropriately deep catastrophic wear might not be encouraged and traction might be enhanced. As far as classical physics..... the final equation is accurate for an idealized model, but rock shoe rubber smearing on rock surface is totally beyond an idealized model. The sipes cut latitudinally (side to side) may present mini edges to the rock surface as the climber pushes downward. We're not talking about normal force here (the component of the climber's weight that is pushing directly perpendicular to the rock surface). We're talking about how to get any bit extra grip while pushing parallel to the rock surface. As you delicately smear up some 5.10 horror show from the 60's each latitudinal sipe may give you just a wee bit extra grip as your shoe is want to slowly butter downward.... David.
Siping might help increase friction along one direction of movement but unfortunately in climbing the shearing force is omni direction. If a sharp crystal get a hold in a cutline and the stress force is put on along the line, it will certainly tear the ruber. I notice this several times bouldering when there is a little cut in the rubber in my shoes. Now, unless it's a 5.5 or a 4th or 5th class approach, it might have some utility. But it would wear out too fast and beside any sneaker would do the job just fine.
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utahwiregate
Mar 29, 2004, 7:05 PM
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I can't vouch for climbing shoes, but my 40,000 tires were siped and they became total crap after 12,000 miles. It was done at a reputable service garage, and they used a siping machine (I was curious and they let me watch as the siping was done). Perhaps the tires wore incorrectly due to winter driving conditions, but I'll never sipe tires again. It costs extra and cut the life of the tire down by 2/3 in my case.
-Gate
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j_dub
Apr 29, 2004, 10:59 PM
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From that Indy car tire site (www.hoosiertire.com):
In reply to: The only sprint compound we do not normally recommend siping is a D10 tire because it is already very soft and may result in "tearing" of the tread blocks and will result in loss of traction.
I think climbing shoe rubber qualifies as 'very soft' rubber.. siping seems redundant and disadvantageous for climbing shoes. :?
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