|
|
|
|
mattnevels
Mar 27, 2004, 5:58 PM
Post #1 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 27, 2004
Posts: 6
|
Dang, this is long... Sorry, but I'm new to all this but I think I've got a legit question that after searching the boards, Taking a beginners course, reading product manuals and climbing books (primarily Freedom of the Hills 7th ed) I haven't seen a good answer to. I'm new to climbing and have only been a few time but I'm really getting into this and, being a single father of two young kids, safety is my primary concern. I went climbing with some more experienced than me, but still rather new to climbing friends and to tie in they tied a Figure 8 on a bight and they just used their autolocking carabiner to clip the rope into the belay/rappel loop on their harness. As I'm reading and learning about climbing, everywhere I look I see the proper method (and the only method given) of tying in to your harness as actually "Tying In" in to your harness. This is typically shown (but alternatives to this are given in some manals) using a Figure 8, going through both harness tie in points with the free end, retracing the figure 8 and then backing that up with a double fishermans knot. Question- For tying into your harness for toproping, why would it not be acceptable to tie a Figure 8 on a bight, back it up with a Double Fisherman's knot and then use an autolocking carabiner to connect the loop in the knot to your belay/rappel loop on your harness? The primary reason I think of this is because we're all pretty new, we're not climbing great distances - right now maybe 30-40 feet but we do a lot of climbing, lowering then switching places, climbing, lowering and then again. Clipping in makes it quicker and easier to climb with more people and maximize your time climbing. (I'm not saying it takes a long time to actually tie into your harness, it just makes things more convenient) At first I thought that this must not be a recommended method because you're adding one more point of failure - but minus the knot, this is exactly how you tie in when rappelling, so I don't think that there is a great safety concern for doing it this way. I do see that it's adding another point of falure, but in my mind I can't see this safety concern outweighing the convenience. Especilly when bringing new climbers who don't know if they'll even like climbing or not let alone want to learn how to tie in proplerly. Please correct me if I'm missing something here. Thanks, Matt
|
|
|
|
|
hippie_dreams
Mar 27, 2004, 6:13 PM
Post #2 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 9, 2003
Posts: 158
|
I have also always been taught to tie in directly to both points on the harness, not the belay loop, for the same reason you've said, adds one more point of possible failure. Without the two points to equilize the load, it's placing more force on the belay loop that should be. With rapelling, you're not taking dynamic falls, the load is pretty constant. I would say tieing to a locking biner, then clipping that to your belay loop would be just "ok" for top-roping, but I would never, ever do it leading -- not really sure what the benifit would be for leading anyhow... In anycase, I've used the biner method while belaying new people in the gym that have no climbing experience, but for some reason I wouldn't feel as safe doing it outside? That method just doesn't sit right with me... My advice would be to take the extra time and tie everybody in individually. Safety is the most important aspect of climbing; don't forget that you could easily die if you overlook something. Remember you have others lives in your hands, time should never go in front of safety. Eric
|
|
|
|
|
brianthew
Mar 27, 2004, 6:19 PM
Post #3 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 1820
|
Clipping in with a locker is fine for toproping; the belay/rap loop is the strongest point on a harness. We do this for children's b-day parties at the gym I work at, and I know several outdoor education schools that do this when toproping outdoors with a large group of kids. In these cases, the fall factors are small, and the forces involved are also small. You should not do this when leading, however, and I wouldn't make it a practice when toproping, either. In addition to being another potential failure point, there are also issues of the 1-point vs 2-point tie in. It is slightly easier to invert when falling if you just have a locker through your belay loop, as not only is the tie-in point a little bit lower but there is only one point at which the rope is attached (more effective "hinge" of sorts).
|
|
|
|
|
mr8615
Mar 27, 2004, 6:24 PM
Post #4 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 4, 2004
Posts: 1032
|
When tying in with a locking carabiner, esp through your belay loop, the biner is free to move around. In the event of a fall, even on toprope, the possiblilty of the carabiner to be crossloaded is far too high. Think about it, you're climbing, the rope is probably not completely tight so as not to hinder your climbing, or pull you up at all, suddenly you fall. The carabiner is moving as you climb, what position will it be in when the rope gets tight? Even a split second of slack can allow the biner to position itself to crossload. I wouldn't take this chance, especially with new climbers or lots of people climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
drunkencabanaboy
Mar 27, 2004, 6:28 PM
Post #5 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 10, 2004
Posts: 153
|
The biggest reason not to do it when leading is the risk of cross loading the biner. (which allows it to hold far less of a fall). However even the weakest cross-loaded biner will hold just about any top-roping fall. Unless your belayer is a retard - of course. When I bring non-climbers climbing and setup a toprope, I use an auto-locker too... I agree - it saves time - I think it's worth it - some might (have) disagree(d).
|
|
|
|
|
the_antoon
Mar 27, 2004, 6:32 PM
Post #6 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 21, 2003
Posts: 428
|
Ok...do not tie into a locker. It is dangerous. The chances that the biner will fail are slim, but they are there, just like in trad, ice or any other type of climbing. Of course equipment can fail, which is why you always try make the chances of it failing as small as possible. You don't just say, well there is a chance it won't even work anyway, so the hell with it. I mean come on, you are putting your life on the line, listen to what people tell you, they aren't just making this stuff up. Heres why you don't tie in with a biner. When you tie into your harness through both loops, your rope cannot break out. If you fall, the rope will land on one of the two webbing loops that is just as strong as any other. If you tie into a biner, all of a sudden you are only connected at one point. This in itself is a reason to tie into the harness. However, when climbing, the rope loop (the part going through the biner) will move around, just as it does when climbing with the rope tied directly to your harness. All you have to do is fall when the rope is in the wrong position, and it will snap right through the gate sending you falling. And to answer the question about rapelling....When you are rapelling, the bite is not jumping around within the locker because you have constant stress on it. And to further that, when you are rapping, you should have a backup that IS tied directly to your harness. The reason you use a biner is because the biner acts as a part of the rappelling devise...just as it does when you are belaying your kids. There is a reason that every book you read, every person you have talked to, and every gym you have been to, has told you to tie directly to your harness. A few extra seconds is not worth your life, your friends life or that of one of your kids.
|
|
|
|
|
reedcrr
Mar 27, 2004, 6:32 PM
Post #7 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 26, 2004
Posts: 99
|
Well this is a good question...one that wil more then likey get alot of viewpoints. Teaching someone to tie in with a locking biner is not good practice at all, and if I had my way any gym owner/manager who did this should be yelled at... First off, your observation of an added failure point is right on...you do not want to under any circumstances want to add a failure point if it is not needed. The reason for the failure as we have seen many times is not the knot but the biner not being locked by the climber and not being checked by the belayer... sounds like it would never happen but it does and when the gate opens...well I am sure you can figure out the rest. Second, this teaches one to be lazy...which is a dangerous trait in this sport. Learning good knot technique is vital to your life. Third you do not want the rope tied on to a hard fixed point with no give, this only increases the load on the rope and will give the rope a "flat" spot very quickly and this "flat spot will be where you rope fails you if or when it does. In climbing we use "dynamic" ropes that are intended to give a little under load, if you want to tie something in to a fixed point use a "static" rope that is designed for that purpose. I hope that you would shy away from this option of setting up a top rope it is just not safe, take the time to tie in correctly. Have fun and climb hard!
|
|
|
|
|
mattnevels
Mar 27, 2004, 6:34 PM
Post #8 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 27, 2004
Posts: 6
|
Crossloading is a very good point - Thanks! I've never really seen a good explaination as to Why tying in is the preferred method, they just say - "This is the way it is" I don't typically do well being told - here's the way it is, do it this way. I need to know the how and the why. I can definetly see the hing effect as being a downside too as I've taken a number of falls. I guess the bottom line is we need to be as educated as we can be before we do anything other than the "Standard" way so we can properly evaluate the risk involved. Hinging is a downside but it wouldn'tve prevented me from doing it in the future, but with crossloading I can see more of a risk involved and the chance for failure at that point is higher than I prevously had evlauated. I'll be tying in now. But with groups of non-climbers we may use this method depending on the climb and potential for falls. Thanks you guys are great, Matt
|
|
|
|
|
mcumbrae
Mar 27, 2004, 6:35 PM
Post #9 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 28, 2004
Posts: 89
|
Why the dilemma?? It is so damn easy to tie in and it is the right thing to do. It eliminates links in the chain and makes you lighter. It can be argued that the difference is insignificant, but nonetheless there IS a difference. Tie in, is really simple and there is no catch.
|
|
|
|
|
mr8615
Mar 27, 2004, 6:39 PM
Post #10 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 4, 2004
Posts: 1032
|
So if the belayer is a retard (god forbid), and you tied in with a locking biner, now you could crossload it and the fall forces generated because of the slack that the belayer hasn't taken up cause the biner to fail, you fall. Is that a necessary risk? I know, a good belayer is always paying attention, but slips ups do occur. If you're tied in to your harness when the belayer left out just a little too much slack (i'm curious how much slack that would have to be) then you fall a little bit but you're fine. With a biner and just a little bit too much slack, the biner could fail. I always tie in to my harness.
|
|
|
|
|
skerry00
Mar 27, 2004, 6:45 PM
Post #11 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 30, 2002
Posts: 33
|
Biners create another link in the chain, 'nuff said, don't be lazy, tie in.
|
|
|
|
|
sspssp
Mar 27, 2004, 6:57 PM
Post #12 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 1731
|
I don't have a problem with clipping into the rope with a locking biner for toprope. Or rather, I clip in with two locking biners. The scenerio where this is convienent is when the TR is so high that you have to use two ropes. This leads you to two alternatives. You can tie into the end of one of the ropes. However, this means that the knot connecting the two ropes will reach the belayer before you get to the top. The belayer then has to deal with putting the other rope on belay (essentially, "passing the knot"). The other alternative, is you can adjust the ropes so that the knot connecting the ropes is at the anchor. This means the climber can't tie into the end of the rope. Instead, they can tie into the middle of the rope using a double figure eight. This is what I do and I clip in with two lockings. The beefy belay biners can handle far more cross loading than the typical biner you find on slings or cams. The forces generated TRing are not comparable to lead falls (unless the belayer is doing a really poor job). Two locking gives me enough backup for comfort, but each to their own.
|
|
|
|
|
kman
Mar 27, 2004, 8:29 PM
Post #13 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 16, 2001
Posts: 2561
|
In reply to: I do see that it's adding another point of falure, but in my mind I can't see this safety concern outweighing the convenience. Especilly when bringing new climbers who don't know if they'll even like climbing or not let alone want to learn how to tie in proplerly. At least use 2 lockers if you are going to use them. Why not just tie in? The issue of tying in using lockers because of convenience and speed is laaame. Practice tying in and sooner or later you will be quick at it. Using a locker because of convenience is just plain old lazy!!
|
|
|
|
|
mattnevels
Mar 27, 2004, 8:55 PM
Post #14 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 27, 2004
Posts: 6
|
Some very good points from both sides I think. Although it now seems obvious to me that generally Tying in is the way to go for TopRoping, I do think that Clipping In has its place in certain situations. Of course as sspssp mentions - with 2 locking biners. This next piece is my own opion, I'm not trying to offend anyone I'd just like to make a point about these issues and why I brought the question up in the first place. Some have replied, that make seem as if the Right thing to do in any situation is to go by the book and then double up on it for safety's sake and don't ever question the current best practices. Yes this way of thinking works and keeps you alive, there is another way to think about things and approach any situation that you may encounter. I prefer to be as educated as I can be about anything that I do. I want to know what is good, and what is bad - but more than that - I want to know why the good way is good and why other methods are bad. I want to know what logic people are using when making their decisions on what is good or not. Otherwise I don't feel like I really know what I'm doing, I'm just blindly following what someone else says. I think blindly following anything greatly increases your risk of putting yourself in harms way. While I'm sure everyone who has replied is more experienced than I am, I have to question some of the replies to this and many other posts I've read based on their reasoning behind them. Some have the opinion that anything that reduces safety shouldn't be considered. I have to disagree with that. Why would you ever Lead climb when you have the option to Top Rope somewhere else. I think that you should evaluate every situation that you're in and evaluate the risk you're willing to take and the tradeoffs for complete safety vs reducing your safety level while gaining something else positive. I can't wait to gain enough experience climbing to feel comfortable leading. While many people double up on everything and for good intentions they may not be thinking of what risks they are putting theirselves into simply by not questioning the obvous. If you're focused on safety you'd never trust a single point in your setup and you'd backup everything. While for the most part this is the recommended way to go, most people forget that they're only using one rope. And at the end of that one rope you have one Belayer. That belayer is human. I think the greatest part of your risk is involved with these factors, but these are two things that many put to much trust into without verifying that they're working properly or considering alternatives that they aren't implementing that increases saftety. like using two ropes or tying some type of autoblocking knot for use while belaying. There is a convenience/safety tradeoff that people make when deciding to or not to use these things. That said I think everyone is taking a certain amount of risk weather they know it or not. Those who can effectively evaluate their risk level put them in a situation to make many things they do more convenient or more effective. I think that I take more risk of harming myself by driving to my local crag than clipping ino my harness, but the benefits I have of being able to at least get to my site seem to outweigh the risks. Now that I'm more educated on what risks are involved with clipping the rope into my harness the benefits of clipping in don't seem worth the risk to me unless you're in a larger group situation and you want to maximize the number of climbers, or like sspssp mentioned TopRoping somewhere that requires 2 ropes. I hope I didn't offend anyone, If I did I'm sorry and I didn't mean to. I just thought I'd share my logic behind the question, why I thought it was a valid question and why it was worth it to question even my own ideas. I'm a little bored this afternoon since I've got the day off my climbing buddies don't. Sorry for the long post.
|
|
|
|
|
hikerken
Mar 27, 2004, 11:17 PM
Post #15 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 7, 2003
Posts: 145
|
In reply to: In reply to: I do see that it's adding another point of falure, but in my mind I can't see this safety concern outweighing the convenience. Especilly when bringing new climbers who don't know if they'll even like climbing or not let alone want to learn how to tie in proplerly. At least use 2 lockers if you are going to use them. Why not just tie in? The issue of tying in using lockers because of convenience and speed is laaame. Practice tying in and sooner or later you will be quick at it. Using a locker because of convenience is just plain old lazy!! lets look at this from objective viewpoints, as theoretical statements of safety are as vexing as being told to do things without reasons. First, if a biner is cross-loaded, most have a breaking strength of 8kn, or about 2,000 #. Inasmuch as the max force generated on a TR is about 800#, the biner will not break from this. If you are talking kids, the force is much less. Second, anyone able to quote such a failure? We accept non-redundancy of the rope, because they don't fail (except when cut by a rock/edge). If this is a common practice, and there are no cases of failure ever happening, that is reassuring. Third, with a biner in the belay loop, it is virtually impossible to cross load it, it will automatically orient along the spine when weighted...try it. (by the way, it is actually much worse if you clip it into both halves of the harness, in which case it will OFTEN cross-load. If you belay with the biner used this way, instead of the belay loop, it will USUALLY cross-load) Fourth, those who say that it is not a big deal to have people tie in, have never tried to lead a group climb. It takes a LOT of time for noobs to tie in, or to be tied in. They tie in wrong, MOST of the time. You have to be VERY careful. It's how I do it, though, as I think it is part of the process of teaching safety. For kids, or a casual climbing situation, such as a wall at an event, I'd not think ill of this....the participants are not interested in learning knots, and you can be sure they will be wrong, and have to be re-tied, anyway. So, in summary, I think the practice in the situation described is fine. However, the same analysis would need to be done in any situation in which this is contemplated.
|
|
|
|
|
c_kryll
Mar 27, 2004, 11:52 PM
Post #16 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 18, 2002
Posts: 146
|
Lots of discussion on this one. As both a guide and a gym manager I can see multiple sides to both arguments. Personally I think it is situational dependant. At the gym I prefer and highly recomend that people actually tie-in using just the rope. Why? Because it's any safer? No, not really, it's just easier for me as the manager to visually check if they're safe. I can look at a knot from 20' and tell if its correct, it's much harder to see if a carabiner is locked from that distance. However there have been times when I allow staff to use carabiners to clip clients in, instead of constantly retying fig-8's due to a groups large size. I just make it perfectly clear that only STAFF are allowed to utilize carabiners, because I know they will make sure they are locked and they're covered under the insurance. As with most things climbing. "It depends." Chris
|
|
|
|
|
mustclimb69
Mar 27, 2004, 11:58 PM
Post #17 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 5, 2002
Posts: 479
|
tying in directly has several advantages... Less rope wear ( you change the knot everytime) More shock absorbtion (the knot pulls tight in a fall) and it avoids another point of possible failure. If you do use a biner to connect use 2, and cross gate them. If you forget to lock them or they get cross load they are backed up. Tying in alos sets the ground work for climbing later and avoids the possibility of messing up when climbing another time or in another situation.
|
|
|
|
|
reedcrr
Mar 28, 2004, 12:53 AM
Post #18 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 26, 2004
Posts: 99
|
It seems as though alot of discussion has been flying on this topic. Why would you want to even consider to temp physics, just because something has not happen or there just is no documented cases...we all know it is possible. And the lame excuse that kids are lighter so it's no big deal... wow what a bunch of crap! Remind me not to have you watch any kids I know! Bottom line...tie in...do it right...stop being lazy and for petes sake don't put children in danger because you think you know what you are doing... I you are going to relax the saftey laws relax them only with yourself not at the possible expense of others! Nuff said!
|
|
|
|
|
fredrogers
Mar 28, 2004, 1:21 AM
Post #19 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2003
Posts: 288
|
Tie in for the simple reason that it teaches the beginner the right way to do things from day one. Clipping in with the biner is sheer laziness.
|
|
|
|
|
daiowan
Mar 28, 2004, 1:24 AM
Post #20 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 28, 2004
Posts: 3
|
As a father, I am sure your concern lies mostly with your children. Instead of risking their lives in a one in a million accident. Use tying knots as a teaching tool. When it comes down to it, letting your children tie there own knots might teach them patience, respect, responsibilty and more appreciation for climbing in general and all of the aspects of it. There are very few lazy rock climbers still around (check out the Darwin Awards). But still make sure to check their knots. It all depends on what you get out of climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
timstich
Mar 28, 2004, 1:34 AM
Post #21 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2003
Posts: 6267
|
If you are attaching yourself to either end of the rope, tie in. If you are attaching yourself to the middle of the rope via a butterfly knot, use two lockers.
|
|
|
|
|
d.ben
Deleted
Mar 28, 2004, 1:38 AM
Post #22 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
I agree with gansser " tying a figure 8 knot should be 2nd nature anyway". If you plan on climbing a lot then you are going to have to know knots well. For anchors, tying in etc. Besides once you've learned the figure 8 follow through well it takes a real short amount of time. The knots already started when the other person unties. If it was your kids saftey I bet youd take the extra time.
|
|
|
|
|
rockchip
Mar 28, 2004, 2:05 AM
Post #23 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 27, 2004
Posts: 7
|
I don't know. I get kinda tired of all the kids at the gym.
|
|
|
|
|
chicaliz
Mar 28, 2004, 2:29 AM
Post #24 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 26, 2003
Posts: 2
|
I always tie in when I'm climbing with just a few people. In the summer though I work at a camp where a lot of climbing goes on. On trips to the rock we always tie in directly. But there is also a 70 foot zipline that kids are always in line for. It takes long enough to check their harnesses, make sure the line is still hooked up right, etc, so for that we use a locking biner and run it through 2 points on the harness.
|
|
|
|
|
reedcrr
Mar 28, 2004, 4:05 AM
Post #25 of 78
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 26, 2004
Posts: 99
|
[It takes long enough to check their harnesses, make sure the line is still hooked up right, etc, so for that we use a locking biner and run it through 2 points on the harness.] Chicaliz...Make the kids wait in line and take the time to do it right, you might get a lot of flack for this but it is a lot better then explaining to a parent why thier kid was hurt on a zip line... trust me they will not agree with the excuse that, "we did it that way to save time". They will only have one thing in mind...taking you to court...and you know what they would be right! To everyone else don't be lazy! Your friends deserve better!
|
|
|
|
|
|