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blacksamba
Apr 9, 2002, 9:55 PM
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an overly opionated member indicated that they never place cams and that a real climber would stack nuts in a crack.
Now I am assuming he has only climbed routes with rests where you could let go with both hands to place and nest the nuts. I just dismissed him as being opinionated and limited in his trad experience.
But I kept thinking about this all weekend and I dont know what to say, has anyone else stacked nuts, I figure it would be like using a lowe ball but trickier. I would trust to fall on one and was wondering if there is any practical experience in the crowd
ben
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fishbait
Apr 9, 2002, 10:19 PM
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Dude, stacking nuts is usually just an aid climbing tool when you're absolutely desperate for gear. Making it a regular free climbing practice is just asking for trouble. Stick with cams and hexs and ignore your friend, he won't be around much longer...
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blacksamba
Apr 9, 2002, 10:39 PM
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I realize this........
but...
He was making his argument on stylistic claims that cams are for sissies and all you need to carry is nuts. I figure if you are only going to carry nuts you may face the situation where stacking nuts is the only way to go. so...... in that eventuality what kind of holding power would get out of them
(btw i think the aid trick you are thinking of is nut/piton stack which works on a different wedging action)
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fishbait
Apr 9, 2002, 10:50 PM
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I know what your talking about... It's when you stack 2 (or more) nuts, usually in opposite directions to cam a horizontal crack. The camming action is passive and marginal, depending on the inner characteristics of the crack. Lateral torque can easily cause them to fall out of place if they're not set really well. Nuts are passive protection that aren't really meant to act in camming situations. Don't get me wrong, it's been done, but I think it's usually only done in desperate situations. If nuts are the ONLY thing your going to carry, be prepared to run into these desperate situations a lot...
Regarding his stylistic claims... To each his own...
[ This Message was edited by: fishbait on 2002-04-09 15:52 ]
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munckee
Apr 9, 2002, 11:59 PM
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No, he may actually be talking about stacking nuts. There were a couple of brands a while ago, including blue water that made nuts with grooves in them so they could be stacked together. The grooves would interlock to keep the nuts resting together.
Regardless, they never sold well because it was kind of a gimicky idea, probably to generate sales more than to generate a climbing tool.
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radistrad
Apr 10, 2002, 12:05 AM
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Stacking nuts? Like the previous post said a few companies made stackable nuts, I've never seen any one use them.
I think it would be really hard to stack nuts on a free climb.
I think the guy is NUTS!
Next he'll be telling you he stacks his cams lobe to lobe, oh wait, he is above cams.
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blacksamba
Apr 10, 2002, 2:41 AM
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ehh
The more I think I about this the more confused I get, I think one moment it would work the next i realize how ridiculous it is.
Either way if you are stacking nuts either cammed or passively stacked I have come to the conclusion you should have used a hex in caming configuration or lose the bell bottoms and 'fro and get out of the seventies.
still...
it is interesting to think about
ben
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natec
Apr 10, 2002, 5:12 AM
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If climbers like Jim Bridwell, Lynn Hill, John Long and so on aren't above the use of cams; what makes your friend so ballsy and holier than thou?
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krustyklimber
Apr 10, 2002, 6:32 AM
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Before camming units were affordable for the ordinary climber, nit stacks were more commonly seen but now are the stuff of stories and legends, except for aid and really easy trad I never use them much anymore. They are however, very solid when properly set (I have even stacked big hexes in offwidths) so don't totally discount it, look for places to try it on easier ground, and back-up and test fly a few, you may find a new tool for your arsenal.
Jeff
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roadtrip
Apr 10, 2002, 8:42 AM
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While the nutstacking discussed so far sounds terrifying, there is a method of slotting nuts above one another to prevent walking. Its kind of like placing a nut to prevent a hitched sling from walking off a horn. I thought that was stacking nuts-quite different from stacking pitons.
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bulldog
Apr 10, 2002, 1:18 PM
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(I have even stacked big hexes in offwidths)
Man, that's a great idea, I've never even thought of that. There's a big nasty offwidth that I frequently climb and I keep running it out cuz I've got no Big Bros and nothing to fit it. But dang, I might have to try that just for sh*ts & giggles.
Thanks Jeff.
Bulldog
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rrrADAM
Apr 10, 2002, 1:48 PM
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I can assure you thast the "spray lord" telling you this hasn't taken a fall on this, and probably is talking out the side of his neck, as the dynamic forces aren't always straight down, and stacked nuts would easily pull if loaded in any direction other that they're set for. I have placed opposed nuts, and I even sinched them in tight, only to have them pull when pulling rope to make subsequent clips, as the route was not a straight line, so it was pulled at an angle.
Don't do it for free climbing. Don't listen to the "arm chair purest spray lord".
rrrADAM
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theamish
Apr 10, 2002, 2:03 PM
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Any climber that calls any climber a sissy for not conforming to the particular style they use is not even worth listening to. Opinions are good. Talking down to someone is sad.
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rrrADAM
Apr 10, 2002, 9:11 PM
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Oh Yea... If you're climbing 5.3's like he is, it should be OK. Must be 5.3 since you'll need both hands to stack the nuts.
Again... I think that guy was talking out the side of his neck.
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roadtrip
Apr 11, 2002, 4:19 AM
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Rrradam is pretty outspoken here, but I think he has safety at heart. I'm no conservative, but this nut/hex stacking idea seems downright dangerous for freeclimbing. Before anyone hurts themselves, try turning nuts/hexes the long way. Its not as stable, so you need to set(yank) the piece harder, but you'll get twice as wide a placement. Besides, unless the placement constricts at a very obtuse angle, there can't be a perfect fit; the nut/hex shape angles double when stacked.
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krustyklimber
Apr 11, 2002, 5:15 AM
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Content removed, for it's inflamatory and problably misdirected nature,
Sorry Adam
Jeff
[ This Message was edited by: krustyklimber on 2002-04-10 23:21 ]
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apollodorus
Apr 11, 2002, 5:28 AM
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I've stacked nuts, and used the Chouinard Clean Hammer to set them. Basically, I inverted a stopper against another one, and then tapped with the long pick of the hammer to set them together. While holding the wire of the inverted one, I tapped on the business one. The crack was pretty much parallel, and the pieces held for aid.
It was sort of stupid, and more for experimental purposes, but it worked. It also was easy to clean, with a light tap upwards.
Stacking passive pieces for free climbing pro seems, say it again, experimental. If you're up to doing it, great. But, I don't think it's something that you want to be promoting as a general way of placing free climbing pro. Cam technology has eclipsed this sort of thing.
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krustyklimber
Apr 11, 2002, 5:38 AM
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I never intended to say that this was normal everyday stuff, experimental is good, psych pro wouldn't be out of line; But don't discredit it as totally worthless either, take what you can get be creative, after all isn't that what it's all about.
Jeff
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rrrADAM
Apr 11, 2002, 12:46 PM
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I missed it 'krusty' ... Was it good ???
I have pretty thick skin my friend, and I do get a little agravated at "arm chair elitest spray lords", and reply rather emotionally.
I think your posts and replies have been right on, sorry I missed your reply.
~Adam
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rocknrone
Apr 11, 2002, 2:11 PM
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That dude is just making up for the fact that he can't afford any cams and probably doesn't even know how to set them. White Trash Dumbass!
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daisuke
Apr 11, 2002, 2:19 PM
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are these those stackers you were talking about?
http://www.megamall.cl/andesgear/Assets/product/images/camerock.jpg
D
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rrrADAM
Apr 11, 2002, 2:41 PM
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Now those look they'd work much better for what's being discussed here, but would still require two hands for a quick placement... Hard to do while free climbing.
I've never seen those, and I like to read about, look at, and fondle all kinds of gear.
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daisuke
Apr 11, 2002, 3:57 PM
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simond isn't a big brand in the states for some reason, I have simond gear and it's good quality, french made. I've been thinkging of getting some of those things I just showed you with the pic, just as good as any other nut and a bit more versatile. altho they're probably best for aiding since you do seem to need 2 hands to put them in.
D
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krustyklimber
Apr 12, 2002, 1:49 PM
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No Adam, It was not good, I feel like a fool, and I apologize to anyone who did see it!
Like Pete likes to tell me, I can be a wanker, eh?
Jeff
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