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Partner iclimbtoo


Apr 2, 2004, 8:23 AM
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After all the hoopla about the "KNOW what you are doing" thread and the various other trad questions I've been reading, I thought maybe people would like to start a list of what they would consider to be good trad rules. Not lengthy paragraphs bashing other people, or explaining what they see is wrong, or whatnot, just simply a couple of trad rules you feel are important and want to list down. After reading the posts and stuff, here is a starting list (obviously not a complete one at that!)...that's the point of the thread...

So...

1) Know your gear - know what you have and its capabilities/limitations
2) Know the rock - know what you're climbing and how it reacts to your gear
3) Get instruction

alright, add on, let's hear 'em...


Partner rrrADAM


Apr 2, 2004, 8:33 AM
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Place gear early and often, especially till you get some distance between you and the ground or obstructions.

Place a cam first, as it's multidirectional.

Place gear shallow for the 2nd, so he doesn't have to struggle with it.

Place gear with the 2nd in mind on traverses, as you gotta protect them too. (pendulums go in the opposite direction for the 2nd)

Know how to self rescue, especially if you are doing multipitch and/or alpine stuff.

Be fluent in building many different types of anchors.

Never be too cheap to leave pieces behind if you have to bail, and can't use natural anchors... Even a couple cams are not worth your life.

Don't build an anchor in just one weakness if you can help it, if it dislodges, all your pieces are crap.

Use runners wisely to prevent rope drag and/or sharp edges contacting the rope.

Remember when leading, that you are also responsible for the life of the 2nd if belaying from atop. They'll be trusting you 100%.




And first and foremost... Don't bash Sport Climbers. :wink:


robmcc


Apr 2, 2004, 8:39 AM
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In reply to:
And first and foremost... Don't bash Sport Climbers. :wink:

Heretic.

Rob


Partner iclimbtoo


Apr 2, 2004, 8:41 AM
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I guess I was thinking that most people would add two or three to get a wide range of answers... :lol: :lol: ...but nice list rrrADAM!


hoppinbig


Apr 2, 2004, 8:45 AM
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Adam's list is great.

- Know when to back down, (practice your downclimbing in the gym or on sport routes). This is particularly true when you are a new leader.. don't get in over your head


shakylegs


Apr 2, 2004, 8:53 AM
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Not really disagreeing with Adam, but as to placing gear shallow for the 2nd, that's your third concern in terms of importance. Yup, it really sucks, when you're seconding, to have to toil to remove a deeply placed cam, or to wail away on a stuck nut but, hey, you're on top rope. Your ass ain't necessarily on the line.
Personally, if I'm placing gear (and thanks for Marc Chauvin for passing this on), there are 3 things to keep in mind, in descending order of importance:
1. Will the piece hold a fall?
2. Is the piece secure, i.e. will the movement of the rope work it out?
3. Ease of removal for the second.

Don't be afraid to extend a sling in order to prevent rope drag. There's nothing worse than being halfway up a pitch and feeling like your harness is gonna be ripped off 'cause the drag on the rope is severe. When it happens to me, I start thinking that my belayer ain't paying attention, which leads to a complete mind fokk, when in reality I simply kept the draw short.
Oh, and finally? Try to ensure that you have a beer in a cooler in the car, because nothing tastes better after a day of trad.


jv


Apr 2, 2004, 8:54 AM
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No hangdoggin'.

JV


piton


Apr 2, 2004, 9:05 AM
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In reply to:
Place gear shallow for the 2nd, so he doesn't have to struggle with it.

are you crazy. gear is going where it's most solid, the deeper the better. all my gear is going to be hard to get out. come on the 2nd is on a TR


Partner j_ung


Apr 2, 2004, 9:12 AM
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In reply to:
Never be too cheap to leave pieces behind if you have to bail, and can't use natural anchors... Even a couple cams are not worth your life.

Or was that "even your life is not worth a couple of cams"...? I always get the two confused. :P


Partner j_ung


Apr 2, 2004, 9:14 AM
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When in doubt...


tedc


Apr 2, 2004, 9:14 AM
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Sounds trite but the only rule is that there are no rules. For every "rule" there is a situation where it should/must be broken. So, in an attempt to answer the question...Rule #1: UNDERSTAND what you are doing and the consequences and then decide your best course of action.

Something I like to do to "keep sharp" is to always quiz myself about what ifs when I am climbing. Like, I'll build a sweet 3 piece anchor and just for fun I'll ask myself "What if I didn't have that #2 camalot?" It's like multiplying your experience. Build one anchor...evaluate 2 anchors.


tedc


Apr 2, 2004, 9:19 AM
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In reply to:

are you crazy. gear is going where it's most solid, the deeper the better. all my gear is going to be hard to get out. come on the 2nd is on a TR

Good luck getting up more than a couple pitches a day then. And in finding a partner. I've quite climbing with partners for this very reason.


Partner rrrADAM


Apr 2, 2004, 9:25 AM
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Deep does not equal solid... Solid equals solid, regardless of how deep it is. Problem is, climbers with little confidence in their placements who always place it as deep as possible, since they are scared.

My gear is as shallow as I can make it and still be solid... I've taken 2 40+ footers on pro, and numerous smaller ones, and my 2nds love cleaning my gear.


As another said, place it as deep as you like, just don't b!tch when your 2nd can't get it out, or doesn't want to clean your gear since you place all gear deep, and bounce test each stopper to weld it in place out of fear. :wink:


mtnbkrxtrordnair


Apr 2, 2004, 9:33 AM
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you guys are whack. place gear for your own protection, not for your second's convenience. I can't stand when a second complains that i set my gear too hard. boo hoo. if you don't like it, you lead sucka.


piton


Apr 2, 2004, 9:58 AM
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ted have no problem getting partners. let's see multipitch: completed car to car 15 pitchs red rocks 8hrs. 16 pitches yosemite car to car 5hrs. and if my partner complains tell him stop being a pussy and go play badmitten.

and as far as deeper being better than shallow your right it's not always better that is easy to find out and see. But this gear is catching my fall, it's going to be bomber, the deepest i can get it and set so it's hard to get out. no freakin wonder there are so many accidents with advice like: place shallow gear and make your gear easy to get out. wtf kind of advice is that!


superdiamonddave


Apr 2, 2004, 10:22 AM
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When placing cams, place them in the direction of the anticipated fall. I have seen too many placed perpendicular to the crack instead of a more parallel orientation. Granted, rope drag can cause them to turn upright, but use of slings can greatly reduce this from happening.

P.s. I'm talking about cracks of the vertical nature and not horizontal.


Partner j_ung


Apr 2, 2004, 10:47 AM
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In reply to:
But this gear is catching my fall, it's going to be bomber, the deepest i can get it and set so it's hard to get out. no freakin wonder there are so many accidents with advice like: place shallow gear and make your gear easy to get out. wtf kind of advice is that!

It's pretty obvious that what rrrAdam means is, place the gear in the most advantageous position, which is not necessarily the deepest. He never said always place it shallow. My gear is bomber and my partners don't complain. The two are not mutually exclusive.


holmeslovesguinness


Apr 2, 2004, 11:01 AM
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Most straightforward placements should be both bomber and easy to get out. Obviously you have to take what the rock gives you, but a good leader should at least try to consider how hard a given placement is going to be for the second to remove.


keithlester
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Apr 2, 2004, 11:04 AM
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In reply to:
Sounds trite but the only rule is that there are no rules. For every "rule" there is a situation where it should/must be broken. So, in an attempt to answer the question....


I agree with this post, only one basic rule
Get up, get down, stay safe. You have to make it up as you go along, why do you think we climb trad? Even the route is not set in concrete, and can be changed to suit. You can't start a route expecting to follow a set path, some of the holds might not even be there, especially on a long gorgeous nasty mountain trad route. :twisted:


piton


Apr 2, 2004, 11:04 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
But this gear is catching my fall, it's going to be bomber, the deepest i can get it and set so it's hard to get out. no freakin wonder there are so many accidents with advice like: place shallow gear and make your gear easy to get out. wtf kind of advice is that!

It's pretty obvious that what rrrAdam means is, place the gear in the most advantageous position, which is not necessarily the deepest. He never said always place it shallow. My gear is bomber and my partners don't complain. The two are not mutually exclusive.

JUNG Quote the whole paragraph. did you miss the 1st sentence:

"and as far as deeper being better than shallow your right it's not always better that is easy to find out and see." now go back to the community


shakylegs


Apr 2, 2004, 11:08 AM
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iclimbtoo, you may have concluded from this thread that another thing to learn is the ability to argue about your placements.
This is also where the beer in the car comes in handy. ;)


Partner j_ung


Apr 2, 2004, 11:43 AM
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now go back to the community

Oh, this is cute. "piton"? Apparently, that's both a username and what you keep up your ass. Tell you what, gumby: I'll go back to Community when you take a trad lesson.

Wait a second, I remember you now. You tried to bust on me for not being able to follow 5.3, didn't you? I think you pulled that "go back to community" line then, too. What's the matter? Can't think of a relevent argument?


Partner rrrADAM


Apr 2, 2004, 12:08 PM
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Hmmmm. a pissing contest. Let's review the combatants:

piton (from his profile):
In reply to:
Climbing Record
piton has recorded the following ascents
Falled on Account of Strain (5.10b)
Frustration Syndrome (5.10b)
Westward Ha! (5.7)
Criss Cross Direct (5.10a)
Bird Brain (5.11c)
Birdland (5.8)
Try Again (5.10c)
Strictly From Nowhere (5.7)
Son of Easy Overhang (5.8)
Queasy O (5.10a)

j_ung (from his profile):
In reply to:
Climbing Record
j_ung has recorded the following ascents
Traditions (5.11c)
Julia (5.10a)
Block Route (5.8)
Bombay Groove (5.10a)
Yardarm (5.8)
Electric Boobs (5.9)
Toads R Us (5.9)
Sensemelia Sunset (5.9)
Rainy Day Women (5.10a)
Storm in a Tea Cup (5.10a)
Sour Balls / Orange Diehedral (5.11a)
Full Tilt Boogie (5.11d)
Kish Dish (5.8)
Fantastic (5.9)
Fleet Feet (5.10a)
Construction Job (5.9)
Built to Tilt (5.10a)
Fat Lady (5.11b)
Bumblebee Buttress (5.8)
***Dopey Duck (5.9)
Serentripitous (5.7)
***Straight and Narrow (5.10a)
Pick -a-dilly Prow (5.11a)
The Bear (5.7)
Star Trekkin (5.10a)
Dinkus Dog (5.10b)
Southern Boys Don't Wear Plaid (5.11b)
The Daddy (5.7)
Mercury's Lead (5.9)
Flappin in the Breeze (5.10a)
Fine Line (5.10c)
Breakfast of Champions (5.10d)
Dryvin & Cryin (5.10a)
Shredded Wheat (5.11a)
Comatose (5.8)
The Pulpit (5.8)
Electra (5.10d)
Rage Rage Against the Dying of the Drill (5.11d)
Energy Czar (current) (5.10c)
Whiskey for Breakfast (5.10d)
Great White Way (5.9)
B-52 (5.10a)
Eros (5.10d)
Winged Mongrel (5.10a)
Lost in Space (5.10a)
Granola (5.8)
***Maginot Line (5.7)
Safari Jive (5.11c)
Cornflake Crack (5.11a)
Eye Sockets (5.10b)
Hyperbola (5.10a)
Sensemelia Sunset (5.9)
The Mummy (5.6)
Cracker Jack (5.8)
First Return (5.8)
Gemini Cracks (5.8)
Right Up (5.9)
Caught Up In The Air (5.10c)
Cedar Pie (5.10c)
Le Menstrel Cramps (5.11a)
Miracle Whip (5.11a)
OH! Mr. friction (5.5)
Wyoming Dick (5.10a)
Toads R Us (5.9)
The Seal (5.10a)
Unfinished Concerto (5.9)
Bloody Crack (5.8)
Rat's Ass (5.8)
The Nose (5.8)
Pereguine (5.9)
Sundial crack (5.8)
Fat Dog (5.7)
Second Coming (5.7)
Good Intentions (5.6)
Left Up (5.7)


Partner j_ung


Apr 2, 2004, 12:10 PM
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Hey, iclimbtoo, I'm really sorry that your thread turned into a flamefest. I think it's a good one, so I'll stop now. Thanks again.


piton


Apr 2, 2004, 12:10 PM
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sure i can have a relevant argument, but when noobs like yourself jung only know how to read bits of info, it would be arguing with a brick wall.

the only piton up my ass is a bong oh feels soooooo gooooood :D you should try it seriously. or just cover yourself with fake blood :roll:

let me know when you come up this spring, you can give a trad lesson. fuckin gumby :roll:

by the way full tilt boogie is a gunks 5.6

radam read my profile just routes for 2004

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