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blacksamba
Apr 10, 2002, 2:56 AM
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Everyone talks about haul bags busting, but I am curious if some of the warnings on gear are warranted.
BD says that their daisys are not to be used to tie into the belay since they are static pieces. I personally find this a little unnerving, if we are supposed to be bounce testing on these why shouldnt we belay off of them.
Has anyone ever broken a daisy or etrier? what sitiations, was it a webbing or a stitching failure
curious
ben
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addiroids
Apr 10, 2002, 3:09 AM
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Just remember that if the daisy breaks while bounce testing, then you fall and the rope catches you after 7 pieces zipper. If it happens while belaying, you die. Never break the holy commandments of the Big Daddy of the rock.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
P.S. That being said, I do use my daisys in the belay, but I tie in slacked with the rope too.
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atg200
Apr 10, 2002, 2:45 PM
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If your belayer falls directly on to the belay, your daisy is subjected to a fall factor 2 load, which will rip the pockets out and statically load the sling and break it too. I use my daisy to clip in to the belay only as a matter of convenience, but it is never my primary anchor and always backed up twice.
Rule #1 - the belay must be bombproof, period. Comparing a bounce test to a belay is the dumbest thing I've ever heard - a head will survive a bounce test but i certinaly wouldn't belay off of it.
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fishbait
Apr 10, 2002, 3:51 PM
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I don't see a problem using a daisy as part of your belay rig if it's necessary. Granted there are better things to use but sometimes it's just not always convenient to use the rope alone. Besides, if you're relying on the rope, the short section your probably using doesn't have very much in the way of dynamics anyway.
Oh, by the way, I don't want to critique your description of bounce testing, but you don't bounce test on your daisys, do you? I mean, aren't you bouncing on your aiders?
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elcapbuzz
Apr 10, 2002, 4:48 PM
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Hey Blacksamba,
I've had two BD daisies break/wear out on me.
Both times it was the stitching/bar tact in one of the loops. I've neve seen/heard of one breaking where the webbing is sewn together.
You can bounce test a lot of different ways.f If it's a #1 Cam in a flaring crack, if I test it at all, it will be a foot test in my aider. Most of the time I test with my daisy, by body bounceing on the piece directly on to the daisy. Make sure you wear a helmet and you don't look up while doing this or you could get some gear in your face.
Cheers, Ammon
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robscate
Apr 10, 2002, 4:57 PM
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Daisy chains breaking.....
I've never loaded one to the breaking point.
as far as using them in the belay. what ever happened to redundancy. I use the daisy to support body weight and then back it up with a clove hitch on the slack rope.
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krustyklimber
Apr 10, 2002, 9:02 PM
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Ammon,
How did you break the daisies? And did they fail completely, or did they catch at the next bar tack?
Scary either way, and most people don't carry a back-up daisy, but maybe we should.
Jeff
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passthepitonspete
Apr 10, 2002, 9:29 PM
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I use my Metolius Adjustable Daisies, and nothing else, all the time for attaching myself to the anchor.
Be I travelling solo, or be I with a partner, a factor 2 fall onto my daisies, or onto anything else for that matter, is impossible.
As for your haul bags bursting and losing stuff, here is your Dr. Piton Tip of the Day - the Internal Haulbag Daisy
Grab yourself a three metre length of 4mm cord, and tie yourself up a daisy with a bunch of clip-in loops. Permanently attach this daisy to the suspension point carabiner at the top of your haulbag, and let the daisy dangle right down inside of your haulbag.
Clip all your stuff in the bag directly into the daisy.
There are two benefits:
Firstly, if the bag ruptures, your important stuff is clipped in and you won't lose it.
Secondly, and more importantly, as you are wrestling with your pig to get stuff in and out of the top, you won't DROP it as you are doing so since it is clipped in to the internal haulbag daisy.
If you are ever going to drop anything on a wall, this is as likely a time as any. It's seldom easy opening an overstuffed pig.
At least this way when you drop it, it's clipped in.
I am Dr. Piton,
and I have dropped way too much stuff off of big walls!
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fishbait
Apr 10, 2002, 9:39 PM
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Hey Piton,
Would you explain this...
"Be I travelling solo, or be I with a partner, a factor 2 fall onto my daisies, or onto anything else for that matter, is impossible. "
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the whole fall factor thing... I'm five feet above a belay with no gear, I fall and land 10 feet down... Isn't that a factor 2 fall? Is that impossible to do?
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mrhardgrit
Apr 10, 2002, 10:16 PM
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Interesting you should ask about the bar tacks breaking on a daisy chain - as you US guys had always told me over the years that the daisies aren't that strong on the internal stitching.
Anyway, last summer i set out to find out quite how strong they were. I climbed a big ol' tree by my Uni and attached one end my rope to the internal bar tack on a daisy (backed up) and then climbed another 20ft or so to another branch above it and jumped... Well, with what ever fall that was (40ft or so) it only ripped through one bar tack and didn't do any harm to the next one it hit!! Yeh, I was pretty impressed!!
In case you want get your hands on this chunky daisy - it's a wild country nylon one (chunky and stripey - style yeh!!).
Tom
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fishbait
Apr 10, 2002, 10:26 PM
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Man, you brits are hardcore! I wanted to know how strong my daisys were so I lifted up the tag and read the printing that said, "22kn." Good enough for me...
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wigglestick
Apr 11, 2002, 4:12 PM
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Does anybody know the breaking strength of the Metolius Adjustable Daisies? The website doesn't give a number. I assume that the upper portion is as strong as a quickdraw and the actual webbing seems pretty burly but I wonder about that buckle.
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blacksamba
Apr 12, 2002, 2:42 AM
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Registered: Mar 28, 2002
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does anyone have an AAJ accident report, are there any webbing or bar tacking failures?
I am morbidly curious
(btw on easy aid I set/test with a few bounces on my daisy before moving up. When needing to do a full body or bounce test I use the standard etrier method)
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drunkenmonkey
Apr 12, 2002, 4:19 PM
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Hey there guys, i hate to refute the GREAT Better Way that is the knowledge of PTPP, i've learnt loads for my up coming trip to yosemite this year however i have a couple couple of thoughts for you
1. the Metolius Adjustable Aiders are rated to 3Kn only, thats about 300kg, not very much really especially for a primary anchor!!!
2. You WILL create a Fall Factor 2 if you fall straight onto your anchor from above without any gear in between. check out this web address for some interesting calculations on fall factors
length of Fall 10m
fall factor = ------------------ = 2
Length of Rope 2m
http://www.petzl.com/petzl/publicActiv?id=SECOUR&rub=sport#
follow the shockload link on the left and then follow the link for fall simulator
Pete, i hate to say it but your practice of using your Adjustable Daisy's at the anchor is really putting yourself at risk unless your backing them up.
i hope this is some useful information for you guys. have fun!!
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krustyklimber
Apr 13, 2002, 1:54 AM
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Pete generally never suggests relying on a "single anything", always back yourself up, as The Good Dr. always says "dieing is not recommended".
To keep from falling onto your daisies, you should clip in with the "bungy doughnut" on your modified harness to the piece your on, and loosen up your daisy and fifi, this way the bungy will absorb some of the force, thus lowering the fall factor... bingo! Still alive!!!
Jeff
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