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getrad
Apr 4, 2004, 5:02 AM
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A fellow by the name of "matt christensen" was seen hammering out the fixed pins on the Schoolroom Roof (A1). When questioned about his actions he replied that he "was cleaning up nature". This climber was not doing a meaningful service for the Salt Lake climbing community. I would like to suggest that this long-haired young man spend his time cleaning up the garbage that litters our busy crags, rather than hammering away at fixed protection.
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timpanogos
Apr 4, 2004, 6:09 AM
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Good hell, who is this idiot?
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galf
Apr 4, 2004, 9:25 AM
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Why not?
His statement is obviously true.
Can't the next climbers make their own placements? It would be a better learning experience for them. Also, fixed pins wear down... So maybe with guys like this, it'll bring new gear, or a wider placement for clean protection(and the rock will be protected from pouding from then on).
I don't know this crag or this route but still, his view is quite reasonable.
IMO, people are just lazy to clean pins out of roof cracks and a pin is NOT a bolt.
BTW timpanogos, you should know better... why did you clean all those heads out of your boulder if it ain't for visual reasons, eh?
Galf
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barefeetnochalk
Apr 4, 2004, 10:38 AM
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man, who gives a _ _ _ _!
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mesomorf
Apr 4, 2004, 2:06 PM
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This seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do. After all, American climbers adopted a "clean as can be" ethic 30 years ago. If it's A1, what's it's C grade (C as in clean)? If it hasn't gone clean yet, what's holding y'all back?
In reply to: I would like to suggest that this long-haired young man spend his time cleaning up the garbage that litters our busy crags, rather than hammering away at fixed protection.
Is his long hair a problem for you, or is it his youth, or both? How do you know he doesn't clean up garbage around the crag? Do you clean up garbage around the crag yourself? Did you suggest this to him face-to-face?
Ever hear of a term coined by Warren Harding - "Valley Christian?" Look it up.
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timpanogos
Apr 4, 2004, 4:47 PM
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That roof is a classic - the pins are documented in the guide book - when I went to mess with topo documented fixed gear on a classic llc route, at least I had the ethical guts to check the pro shops, seek fa's advice and get local consensus instead of taking it upon myself to say screw everyone else – I know what is best for this area.
I guess I should just be glad we have a new climbering “chopper” in our area who sounds like he is on a mission from god – screw the gentiles.
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timpanogos
Apr 4, 2004, 5:57 PM
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Galf said
In reply to: IMO, people are just lazy to clean pins out of roof cracks and a pin is NOT a bolt.
Not sure exactly what you are saying here? If you are suggesting that they were lazy to not remove the pins – go check the price – at about 10 bucks a wack – it was not laziness that motivated them being left.
In reply to: BTW timpanogos, you should know better... why did you clean all those heads out of your boulder if it ain't for visual reasons, eh?
No one will ever climb the boulder again – it was trash – if you have read that whole post, you will have also noticed that I said I had decided to leave heads I set on real routes – there is a reason for this – someone will follow.
Look closely at the pictures I posted on that boulder – first head was a #1, cleaned second head was a #2 – why is that? The fixed gear damaged the rock and when removed required a larger piece of fixed gear the next time around.
So, all your chopper friend has done here is changed a c1 (it was going clean – it’s called a bolt ladder only with fixed pins) back into a ground fall potential A2/3? (I don’t know what it would be rated now).
I’ve heard there was a fixed RRUP pulling the roof at the edge to get back on free – if your friend screwed this up – he may be leading to the need for another bolt.
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jwiggins
Apr 4, 2004, 8:07 PM
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fixed protection is noted in guide books or in one way or another people count on it being there. It is unsafe and a disservice to the community to remove fixed pro for any other reason than to replace it.
slcca, IME, Black Diamond Store, and Mountainworks are all great resources in Utah to learn about routes that are in need of repair or even a forum for discussing whether fixed protection can be removed from a route. You can even find a way to contact the first ascent party in many cases to ask permission for a change you feel is important. Realize that a first ascent is a first ascent and this person has every right to say no to the suggested change.
Bottom line... if you don't like the way a first ascent party climbed a route then go out and do your own! This is far a greater service than hacking up someone else's hard work.
BTW it takes a special type of angst to remove fixed pro from someplace like the schoolroom roof. I agree that it would be better for people that feel the this way to spend time cleaning up the beer cans left road side or better yet write letters to the LDS church asking them to finish environmetal reclamation in the Gate Buttress area after thier recent rock quarrying activities.
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galf
Apr 4, 2004, 9:38 PM
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Can it be climbed clean?
If so, let it go clean. Better style, and the pins would have worn down eventualy anywaays.
In reply to: Bottom line... if you don't like the way a first ascent party climbed a route then go out and do your own! This is far a greater service than hacking up someone else's hard work.
Ouch!!! So you believe that bad style should be kept forever (in a A1 crack that anybody could have done?) because mister X was first up?
The rock ain't his... only the pins he left behind. It's up to the individual climbers to decide if it deserves respect or not (given the new aid gear).
Hard work??? Bullsheiss! It would have been real hard work to clean it afterwards.....lazyness....
BTW, timpanogos,I know succesive placements make bigger placements possible :wtf: That was my point, it'll make the climb clean if it isn't possible yet, and will allow free climbing sometime in the future. Think they Huber brothers could have done it without it?
Finally, hard iron pins were specifically designed to be retrieved (read Yos. history). So if the debate is about those, I respect the ¨cleaner¨ , if they were soft iron(the type to leave fixed, they might break during retrieval and litter the crack)
Happy evolution,
Galf
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iclimbtoo
Apr 4, 2004, 9:41 PM
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In reply to: fixed protection is noted in guide books or in one way or another people count on it being there. It is unsafe and a disservice to the community to remove fixed pro for any other reason than to replace it. slcca, IME, Black Diamond Store, and Mountainworks are all great resources in Utah to learn about routes that are in need of repair or even a forum for discussing whether fixed protection can be removed from a route. You can even find a way to contact the first ascent party in many cases to ask permission for a change you feel is important. Realize that a first ascent is a first ascent and this person has every right to say no to the suggested change. Bottom line... if you don't like the way a first ascent party climbed a route then go out and do your own! This is far a greater service than hacking up someone else's hard work. BTW it takes a special type of angst to remove fixed pro from someplace like the schoolroom roof. I agree that it would be better for people that feel the this way to spend time cleaning up the beer cans left road side or better yet write letters to the LDS church asking them to finish environmetal reclamation in the Gate Buttress area after thier recent rock quarrying activities.
Wow. Amen to that.
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atg200
Apr 4, 2004, 11:07 PM
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i'm curious how you could take a ground fall from a roof that is several pitches off the deck? bouncing off that slab wouldn't be much fun, but not nearly as bad as cratering.
if no one beats me to it, i will try to go up there next weekend and figure out if it can be done cleanly or not. if it is still a nailing line, i'll fix a few pins in it but leave out any that are unnecessary.
andrew
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galf
Apr 4, 2004, 11:35 PM
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Cheers ATG,
I trully hope you'll suceed in your clean ascent!
Have a nice climb!!!
Galf. :D
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jwiggins
Apr 5, 2004, 1:29 PM
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good luck! I look forward to hearing about how it went.
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timpanogos
Apr 5, 2004, 2:19 PM
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In reply to: The rock ain't his... only the pins he left behind.
galf - so, lets see its the new missionaries rock, he gets to choose?
Andrew - I consider ground fall to be ledges/slab anything but air. Don't deckon that one! Hitting that slab from that roof would be a bone buster, not just a scrapper - but what the hell do I know, the new slc movein is now the area expert. Not sure it's any different for you to now go repair the route on your own without getting a consensus than it was for me to mess with BPD
If you do replace pins, Mountain Works in Provo has soft iron and I would at least challenge you to do the right thing with it.
Chad
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atg200
Apr 5, 2004, 2:36 PM
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wow, chad. please keep in mind that i've been climbing for a *long* time, i've replaced bolts and fixed pins in other very classic and long established areas, i've established new routes, and in the last few weeks i've climbed 50-60 pitches in little cottonwood. i'm not an area expert, but i offered to go up and replace any necessary fixed gear at my expense - and i have the expertise to do it safely.
would you like me to get a consensus approval for replacing some of the crappy bolts i've found lately as well?
really, i think you are just trying to pick a fight since you didn't like some of my advice that you don't agree with in other threads.
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j_ung
Apr 5, 2004, 2:38 PM
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Good luck atg200. I hope it goes without any iron.
I also want to agree with timpanogos. No single person gets to decide what's best for an area. That kind of thinking invites destructive behavior on both sides of the issue.
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grayhghost
Apr 5, 2004, 2:57 PM
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Just to clarify.
One of the climbers names was ____ Christiansen.
The belayers name was Matt ______.
Sorry for my poor memory.
When confronted they did not even know who the first accent party of schoolroom roof was. Also, this was a bolt ladder plain and simple, just like the bolt ladder on Spaceshot in Zion circumnavigates the original A4 flake hooking. Why do we need a C4 ground fall potential on schoolroom buttress? Finaly, these choppers went to the lip of the roof and then down-aided while chopping, they did not even attempt to clean-aid the line after it was modified, so they are not trying to progress the sport they are just plain dumb. (note: after chopping these anchors they finished a different climb and rapped off of FIXED slings to the ground)
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rockprodigy
Apr 5, 2004, 3:09 PM
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The only reasonable excuse I can think of for pulling those pins would be to attempt to free climb it, which would require bolting it.
My guess is they wanted the booty, of course they wouldn't admit that when confronted.
I've looked at the roof pretty closely, and I don't see it going clean unless you can get cam hooks in the pin scars, and the cam hooks don't bend open when you weight them...make sure your belayer has 911 on speed dial!
On the other hand, I've never seen a single person on that route, so....
ATG, you should post on Utahclimbers.com to hook up with some LCC regulars.
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atg200
Apr 5, 2004, 3:20 PM
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i've spent some time looking at that roof too, and was wondering about getting small lowe balls in there. it might be hard, but it would make for a really cool pitch. have you looked at trying to free it? looks like there might be some feet, but it looks awfully hard!
i've posted a bit on utahclimbers, and joe gave me the tour before he blew out of town.
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timpanogos
Apr 5, 2004, 4:28 PM
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In reply to: really, i think you are just trying to pick a fight since you didn't like some of my advice that you don't agree with in other threads.
Here is what you just said above:
In reply to: i'm curious how you could take a ground fall from a roof that is several pitches off the deck? bouncing off that slab wouldn't be much fun, but not nearly as bad as cratering.
Seems to me you are the one being an ass and picking at anything I say – I believe “groundfall” is a term not limited to first pitch.
If it goes clean great – it now needs re-rated and future guide books should be updated to reflect this right? If it ends up CxF, new pins required, will they be soft ones?
I’m also just suggesting that others may have a more vested interest in this roof than you.
Bssmoot, brianinslc, Stocker, Meril and Scott at IME, Jeff Pederson and Darren Knezek in Provo – these are all men I contacted about bpd – they have been climbing/FA’ing this area for the last 30 years.
Seems a new move in (even though an expert) may want to make allies out of local hardman.
This is one of the first things I really learned about ethics – 1. talk is cheap – 2. public talk is protected and often not what is done in secret.
All I’m asking is if expertise foregoes the number one ethics rule – get local consensus.
Chad
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atg200
Apr 5, 2004, 5:16 PM
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there are big differences between a groundfall, landing on a ledge, hitting a corner, or bouncing off a slab. the terms are not interchangeable, and calling this a groundfall is misleading. i wasn't picking on you - just clarifying semantics.
there is an awfully big difference between what you were talking about doing on the peeler and this. when you first talked to me about the peeler, you were thinking about adding a bolt or in some way pulling out the drill. that is a permanent alteration.
on this route i would simply be trying to do it in better style, and if that wasn't possible i would leave it in exactly the same (actually slightly better since the pins would be new) condition that it was in prior to the pins being cleaned. there would be no altering of the route whatsoever.
in any event, i'll probably just forget about it so i don't have to put up with sniping from some guy who has only been climbing for a year or two. i'm sorry i even volunteered to help.
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timpanogos
Apr 5, 2004, 5:53 PM
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Andrew,
Hey, I’ve asked you to take me along many times – let’s go do it. It would make another great project. Let’s go do it as follows:
1. See if it’s possible to go clean and if it does, suggest a new C rating to pass around to local shops/hardmen.
2. If it will not go clean, back off it for the day – don’t fix anything.
3. If it does go clean but its super dangerous c3+ X stuff – get local consensus if it should stay this way, and if not what strategic fixed placements might leave it at a safe c3f.
4. If it obviously will not go clean – measure and map-out the roof (take pictures) and suggest potential c1f, c2f, c3f types of fixed gear placements, obtain soft pin list for the various proposed levels.
5. get local consensus and go back and do it with soft pins.
I’d love to do it with you – I’m available all day sat and sun, every weekend – I’ll be willing to do the gumby leg work of obtaining consensus and rounding up the soft pins (I’ll split cost with ya). You do the leading and rightfully claim a first clean fa – good intro for you into the community.
I have one each of the 3 smallest ball nuts I can through into the gear list, as well as a solid small cam set (in various brands).
Chad
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atg200
Apr 5, 2004, 6:04 PM
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just go for it chad. a 15' roof guarded by a whole lot of 5.6 climbing is just not enough to get me fired up for a drawn out multiday project. i would much rather go to the desert and do some towers. this would be something i would quickly run up and take care of after work as a public service, but obviously i am an alien n00b that has no business doing it.
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timpanogos
Apr 5, 2004, 6:20 PM
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In reply to: I would much rather go to the desert and do some towers.
Standard reply you always give me – unless of course I ask you to take me on a tower – in which case you respond with
“I would much rather do alpine, I’m only interested in spectacular peaks”
And yet you have done 60 routes in lcc in the last few weeks?
Ok, I can finally take the hint (or wonder what you are hiding).
Chad
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paintrain
Apr 5, 2004, 7:05 PM
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What's it matter? Just because the guidebook says it is fixed? It is an short aid line up off the ground a handful of pitches. Learn to pound iron. It might get done more often. Otherwise, forget the pins and put in a bolt ladder if all we want to discuss is safety aspect. I don't really see the problem other than they are a rusty piece of history.
What is that I hear - bolts are more damaging. Semantics at this point with a bunch of damaging iron sticking out of the rock (soft or not). Safety??? those iron pitons rust out and frost wedge out, you are creating a liability versus saving anyone who might try to free it.
It gets done so rarely. Just leave them out regardless at this point. Any newby who goes up there to aid it will see what he is in for and just finish by free climbing SR anyhow (they will have had to have the gear to begin with).
Is it just change that bothers you? Just curious as when I have these reactions to the same sorta stuff that I see, I dig around my brain a bit to find that to be the real reason - aside from what the guidebook says or what the FA's did. The FA's should have cleaned it anyway IMO.
Plus if it gets nailed and cleaned a couple times then rockprodigy and ATG can make it a hard free route and there won't be those unsightly pins sticking out.
PT
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