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a_scender
Apr 10, 2004, 7:36 PM
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I'm curious what kind of techniques folks use for rope management when simu-climbing. I have tried it a couple times and this is the method I used:
We used about 100' of rope between us, and tied in using a bowline on a bight through the hard points. I clipped the tail to my belay loop with a locking 'biner. Then I made a mounaineer's coil out of the free end and slung it around my shoulder. So basically my partner and I each carried 50' of rope over the shoulder. This method seemed to work pretty well.
I would like to know what other methods are used, and any other info on simul-climbing would be great. Thanks a lot everyone!
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craig_climber
Apr 10, 2004, 8:03 PM
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What is simul-climbing?
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rrrADAM
Apr 10, 2004, 8:18 PM
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It's when both leader and 2nd climb at the same time.
Simultanious Climbing. :wink:
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keithlester
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Apr 10, 2004, 8:47 PM
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Cant see why you would untie and then tie in part way down the rope Orin. :?
Better to stay on the end of the rope, take in the spare as mountaineers coils over one shoulder, tied off to the belay loop, so that any load would come on the belay loop and NOT on the coils.
:)
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a_scender
Apr 12, 2004, 5:04 AM
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Sorry, guess I wasn't clear enough. The load does go onto the tie in point of the harness, not the coil. Any fall would be held by the bowline that is tied into the hard points of the harness. The tail clipped into the belay loop is basically the back up to keep the bowline from coming undone. It would never come under any load. Also, we started the climb tied in that way, so it didn't involve any untying. I guess a downside to this method is that it would be difficult to switch from simul-climbing to regular pitch swapping mode. Thats why I'm trying to get some more info. Thanks for the info.
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curt
Apr 12, 2004, 6:14 AM
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Hahahahaha. You clearly have no clue about simulclimbing, so please do not do this and end up in ANAM. One point though--make sure the stronger partner is following--and not leading. Do you have any idea why this is a good idea?
Curt
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g-funk
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Apr 12, 2004, 6:27 AM
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Curt
How bout some help and advice instead of cryptic ridicule. The dude's just asking.
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curt
Apr 12, 2004, 6:34 AM
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In reply to: Curt How bout some help and advice instead of cryptic ridicule. The dude's just asking.
Advice? You can read right? As I said, the stronger partner always follows.
Curt
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keithlester
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Apr 12, 2004, 8:42 AM
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In reply to: Also, we started the climb tied in that way, so it didn't involve any untying. I guess a downside to this method is that it would be difficult to switch from simul-climbing to regular pitch swapping mode. Thats why I'm trying to get some more info. Thanks for the info.
You have it Orin, thats what I was referring to, I never thought you would be doing a whole route moving together, but the advice is still good for again, as it gives you the chance to change methods in mid-route without any fuss. :)
I assume you put in running belays along the route? If not, I reccomend that you do. The leader starts with all your pieces and the second gathers them in, until the second has everything, then you meet up and either swap gear, or swap roles. :)
If you dont use running belays, then the whole exercise is pointless, unless you are an experienced climber leading a novice on a tether. Guides sometimes do this, but you wouldn't want to be doing it if there was the slightest chance you would fall yourself. :(
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munckee
Apr 12, 2004, 3:04 PM
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How often do you guys place pro when simul-climbing? Do you have a specific formula for it or do you just place when needed?
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dingus
Apr 12, 2004, 3:10 PM
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In reply to: How often do you guys place pro when simul-climbing? Do you have a specific formula for it or do you just place when needed?
I place pro with in reverse proportion to my ball size. The smaller my balls shrink the more pro I place. Doesn't seem to matter much whether its simulclimbing or not though.
I try to keep a minimum of three pieces betwixt me and my simulclimbing partner, even on the easiest ground. So let's say every 50 feet or so. I violate the principle on 3rd class rock and snow slopes, etc. It's good to work it so that the 2nd is removing a piece when the leader is placing another, much more efficient in terms of stopping the entire team.
It's just a running belay as opposed to a static belay. An age old mountaineering technique.
DMT
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thegreytradster
Apr 12, 2004, 3:30 PM
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Another thing to keep in mind is that as this technique is usualy used on ridges or other relatively low angle traversing travel. Place gear just AFTER the harder sections also.
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harihari
Apr 12, 2004, 4:30 PM
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You can read my post on this topic about the system I use (and the responses to that post) here
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=53207&highlight=simulclimbing
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keithlester
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Apr 12, 2004, 7:14 PM
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In reply to: How often do you guys place pro when simul-climbing? Do you have a specific formula for it or do you just place when needed?
I'd say dingus has it right. I SOOOO like his colourful language too (English spelling, sorry, can't help myself). But that's about what the rest of us do, put in a piece whenever you feel the need.
The reason why you want a piece in just after any tricky section, is in case the second falls, the closer you are to a piece of gear, the shorter the fall. You will have already figured that out I guess, being a smart, trad oriented type of guy. :wink: :wink:
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a_scender
Apr 13, 2004, 5:43 AM
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In reply to: Hahahahaha. You clearly have no clue about simulclimbing, so please do not do this and end up in ANAM. One point though--make sure the stronger partner is following--and not leading. Do you have any idea why this is a good idea? Curt
Yes I know why the stronger partner seconds. If the second falls it will pull the leader unexpectedly off the rock. I wouldn't simulclimb anything hard enough that I, or my partner, would fall anyway. Thanks for treating someone you don't know with total disrespect. That shows me how mature you must be. :roll:
Oh yeah, and thanks for being a dick, the world needs more people like you.
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a_scender
Apr 13, 2004, 5:45 AM
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And thanks to everyone else other than Curt for their help.
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keithlester
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Apr 13, 2004, 7:58 AM
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Yes I know why the stronger partner seconds. If the second falls it will pull the leader unexpectedly off the rock. I wouldn't simulclimb anything hard enough that I, or my partner, would fall anyway. Thanks for treating someone you don't know with total disrespect. That shows me how mature you must be. :roll:
If its easy enough that you're sure you aren't going to fall, why are you using the rope :?
You should be solo scrambling if its a grade you're comfortable with, much more fun, nothing to slow you up. :wink:
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munckee
Apr 13, 2004, 9:25 PM
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You asked a question and now you're bitching about the responses? Sorry, I didn't see anything even remotely disrespectufl about that response. Why is it disrespectful to assume that you might want further information? :roll:
Thanks to everyone who answered my question. Confirmed my thougths exactly.
In reply to: In reply to: Hahahahaha. You clearly have no clue about simulclimbing, so please do not do this and end up in ANAM. One point though--make sure the stronger partner is following--and not leading. Do you have any idea why this is a good idea? Curt Yes I know why the stronger partner seconds. If the second falls it will pull the leader unexpectedly off the rock. I wouldn't simulclimb anything hard enough that I, or my partner, would fall anyway. Thanks for treating someone you don't know with total disrespect. That shows me how mature you must be. :roll: Oh yeah, and thanks for being a dick, the world needs more people like you. |
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flamer
Apr 13, 2004, 9:47 PM
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Listen.
You have to be very careful when throwing ADVANCED technique's around, online.
Curt may have been a bit abrasive about it but he is correct when stating you probably don't know much about simul-climbing.
A couple of things to consider....why did you use a bowline on a bight?
IF you were going to use the method you stated(and I wouldn't advise it) The better knot to use would be the butterfly(also known as the austrian grapevine).
Your best bet would be to just stay on opposite ends of the rope, with the second using a grigri to belay- thus easily eliminating any slack that builds up between you.
If you truly wanted to half the rope and stay closer together, I would suggest having one person tie into both side's of the rope and the other tie into the middle- using the butterfly. Thus eliminating either the leader or follower carrying any extra rope.
Personally when I know I'm going to simul an entire route, and I don't need a full rope to descend I use a 100' rope- but it also depends on the route.
Be careful.
josh
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a_scender
Apr 14, 2004, 4:12 AM
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In reply to: You asked a question and now you're b---- about the responses? Curt
Point taken, thanks.
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2xtendonpoper
Apr 14, 2004, 11:47 AM
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Hey yall, i just quickly scaned the post after Curt, so i dont know if any one else has mentioned it. Theres a book that desribes many of these techiques, and a bit on rope managment while doing so, n-e ways check it out, it should open your eyes some more to the associated risks and how to's of being as safe as you want to be. Of course its one of those How to Rock Climb Series books; Climb On! Skills for More Efficient Climbing. By Hans Florine & Bill Wright. Chapter 4 has some nice visuals, so be carefull.
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sspssp
Apr 14, 2004, 5:59 PM
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In reply to: Your best bet would be to just stay on opposite ends of the rope, with the second using a grigri to belay- thus easily eliminating any slack that builds up between you.
I don't like simul climbing with the full rope out. My partner being the stronger climber, I'm always in the lead. Simul climbing is usually done on easy terrain--blocky, ledges, wandering. Full rope out means you have maximum rope drag the whole time and it makes communication difficult.
My partner ties in halfway and then uses a grigri in front of the tie in point to deal with slack. He carries the rest of the rope coiled up.
Works for us, but each to their own.
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fitz
Apr 14, 2004, 11:59 PM
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Simul-climbing is a lot like self belay. Both seem like a compromise in safety - somewhere between 'nothing' and a conventional belay off an anchor, but the reality is a bit murkier.
And, like self-belay, a lot of advice has to be taken with a grain of salt. You're managing increased risk, so it behooves you to dig into 'why' instead of taking someone else's recommendations without much thought. For example, one of the mags had a 'tip' about using Petzl Tiblocks to protect simul-climbing awhile back. The idea being that the Tiblock will arrest the second and keep him/her from popping the leader. Not to belittle the author, but having seen the havoc that a Tiblok can do to a rope's sheath when it is not used carefully for hauling and acending, the last thing I want to do is drag line through one unattended.
You also need to consider different contexts and styles. For example, since I don't do much aid anymore, the places that I'd simulclimb are the places I'm least likely to have dragged a Gri-Gri, so Flamer's recommendations are clearly based on different situations, or at least equipment decisions, than me. Similarly, I am not clear on Flamer's reasoning for an alpine butterfly. Unless he is picturing a different rig (or knot), it would seem that the butterfly would be loading strands parallel to the loop, instead of perpendicular to the loop as the knot is usually used. Again, it does not mean that Flamer is 'wrong', it just means that this stuff is very hard to discuss out of context.
My one observation/recommendation would be, don't rope up 'just in case'. If you are going to rope up, instead of just scrambling, take falling as a very real possibility. There is no point dragging rope, placing gear, etc. if, when the @#$% actually hits the fan, you take a 50' fall on a cross-loaded biner clipped to your harness - yanking your partner of his/her feet and leaving 'em tied to air. Double up the biners or, better yet, tie in.
That said, I'd repeat another poster's sentiments, be careful...
-jjf
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jason1
Apr 19, 2004, 6:08 AM
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look into mountaineering systems... you can kiwi coil to make the shorter...
also, instead of the tibloc.... you could use a garta knot.... that way if the second slips the leader won't come off... if the leader slips... the second will counter balance...
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