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itakealot
Apr 11, 2004, 6:47 PM
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I am posting this after climbing near the dam at Malibu Creek yesterday to vent about $hit I never use to see five years ago.
1) We were finishing out the day on some climbs that share the same anchor then this guy shows up with an entourage of 10 people, then he asks us if we were going to be long and when I said we just started he let out a long sigh and said he had some beginners. I could of said "FLICK off" but I was pretty cool and pointed out another climb that was moderate but he continued to hover. Then I finally said that we were going to all three climbs and that the other climb was fun, and he went away.
2) The group then files in and were chattering like monkeys. The one thing that is great about the dam area is its solace, but hopefully this is an isolated incedent. So noobs, please keep your volume down to 2 not 11, since the climber and belayer need to hear eachother. Also a few of them light up and smoke right there and we were downwind. Although it is outside show respect for the non smokers.
3) The next crazy thing was when the guy was getting on the route, before he was on belay, he climbed up to the second bolt, clipping off course, but w/o the belayer. He did clip in at the second bolt with a runner after looking down at the ground and realizing how far off the deck he was. Then his belayer puts him on belay and he starts to climb, climb way off route for atleast 15 feet and since his belayer was sitting down to her back to the rock in a comfortable position, he would have cratered if he sketched. So then he yells over to me, "where does this route go?"
4) Another guy in the group was giving a quick belay clinic to someone then there is goes up a route, and his belayer was letting go of the brake hand everytime she pulled up or feed the rope. So as compassionate I am I tell the climber that his belayer is letting go the the brake hand and right at that moment he looks down and she is doing it again, which freaked him out but he corrected the belayer, then she turns around and says that she has belayed many times.
5) Lastly they top out and and since they are all jabbering they climbers and belayers are confusing there commands. Luckily no one gets killed but then they leave the tr's through the shuts.
NOOBIES LISTEN UP:
Rules to live by:
1) Don't show off by free climbing w/o being on belay, especially on sandstone after a month of rain.
2) When belaying on sandstone stand up to be ready to dodge rock and catch your climber.
3) At the crag keep your personal volume to a minimum so the climber and belayer can hear eachother, since the universe does not revolve around you and you need to respect others.
4) It is not safe at a sandstone area to give a first time lead belay clinic and let them belay you right there, even if you are a solid climber, since sandstone is not granite or plastic for all that matter.
5) Taking large groups to the back country is an annoyance to all other climbers.
6) Lastly that grumpy old climber may be giving you advice that might save your life.
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thrasher
Apr 11, 2004, 7:18 PM
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First, find out if they are liberals...if so, let them conitinue with their dangerous ways...thins them out eventually.
Second, chances are they are NOT conservatives because conservatives usually aren't that dumb.
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keithlester
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Apr 11, 2004, 7:46 PM
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Could be a bit of Darwinism was happening right before your eyes. If you had a scientific mind, you would just observe and take notes. I'm afraid you may have stopped evolution dead in its tracks by your intervention.
You know they might breed, and then we would be swamped. Did you think of that before you showed them the kindness of being grumpy? I thought not.
The Indians have a saying, if you save somebody's life, you are then responsible for them for the rest of your days. I think you should be this groups self-appointed guardian now, and supervise them wherever they go.
That'l learn ya for being so nice :twisted: :twisted:
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outhere
Apr 11, 2004, 8:17 PM
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itakealot- good thread! i see this sh!Tall the time and i try to ignore what their doing because if something happens its there fault, but its kind of hard when somebody could die.
so noobies take the advice ^ and remember your welcome to be out there of course but dont be suprised if you get crap for doing something dangerous. learn your stuff somewhere safe..and not from a buddy of yours whos just started as well.
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bobd1953
Apr 11, 2004, 8:22 PM
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In reply to: Second, chances are they are NOT conservatives because conservatives usually aren't that dumb.
So how do you explain George Bush IQ that is under a hundred?
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bsignorelli
Apr 11, 2004, 8:31 PM
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In reply to: because conservatives usually aren't that dumb.
ROTFLMAO!!!!
Yeah sure...
and who elected GW? Liberals? Commies?
Nope....
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raindog
Apr 11, 2004, 9:16 PM
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Itakealot,
I'm glad you're posting this, but could you proofread it a little better next time? I had trouble understanding a lot of your post.
-Jeff
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ipsofacto
Apr 11, 2004, 9:44 PM
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23456789
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dcclimb
Apr 11, 2004, 10:25 PM
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I agree how frustrating moronic people like this are, but keep in mind while Malibu Creek is certainly a beautiful place to climb, it is far from being in an isolated area and it is certainly not the 'backcountry'. Yeah the dam area is bit further in than most of the other walls, but it still sees a lot of traffic. This is what happens when you climb at any relatively popular climbing area. Yeah it sucks, but if you want to get away from the crowd (as a lot of us do), go where the crowd doesn't go.
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keinangst
Apr 12, 2004, 12:20 AM
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In reply to: Second, chances are they are NOT conservatives because conservatives usually aren't that dumb.
They're all out playing golf!
Good post. I agree on the proofing comment, it was a little hard to follow.
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bouldertom
Apr 12, 2004, 1:34 AM
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In reply to: Itakealot, I'm glad you're posting this, but could you proofread it a little better next time? I had trouble understanding a lot of your post. -Jeff
itakealot looks to be one of the better spellers on this site compared to some others....
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itakealot
Apr 12, 2004, 1:38 AM
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In reply to: Itakealot, I'm glad you're posting this, but could you proofread it a little better next time? I had trouble understanding a lot of your post. -Jeff
Sorry man, and the funny thing is that I possess an BA in English, which is more like BS. I had to meet someone at the crag this morning, but next time I will be conscientious about the spelling and grammar. :cry:
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oldsalt
Apr 12, 2004, 2:33 AM
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My beanie is off to Jeff for mentioning points off for spelling and to itakealot for keeping his cool. Anyone who can spell konsheinshus better than me is OK and a gentleman, too.
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xprompt
Apr 12, 2004, 3:23 AM
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thats funny
i dont remember seeing any spelling errors till u pointed it out
im not sure if thats a good thing....
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sir_chalkalot
Apr 12, 2004, 3:37 AM
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In reply to: And, of course, since every jack-man of them were noobs: “ ON BELAY! BELAY ON! CLIMBING! CLIMB ON! TENSION! TENSION!!! TAKE! TAKE SOME MORE!! TAKE SOME MORE DAMNITTT!!!!I CAN'T DO THIS MOVE! HOW DO I DO THIS!?!MORETENSION!!!!ICANTDOTHISSOHELPMESOMEMORETENSION!!!THISISTOOHARDANDINEEDMORETENSIONINEEDTORESTFORABIT!!!!” Yup, it is different this year.
Proper communication is appropriate when?
George.
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pyrosis
Apr 12, 2004, 4:01 AM
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I always wonder when I see some young stud firing up a 5.8 with his friends and back-clipping the first draw, do I point it out to him and risk embarrassing him in front of his buddies, or just let the darwin effect work itself out?
Tavis
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ipsofacto
Apr 12, 2004, 4:31 AM
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ipsofacto
Apr 12, 2004, 4:35 AM
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itakealot
Apr 12, 2004, 4:07 PM
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It would be great to hear the opinions of some newbies on this thread, please edify us with your opinion and break your reticence.
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munderwo
Apr 12, 2004, 4:48 PM
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Well, I have been climbing for two years now, but I can certainly recall being a noobie. I learned to climb in Italy with another American who had only been climbing for three months. It was not a particularly safe begining.
The local crag we started off at was consistently occupied by Italians, my friend and I were not only the only Americans, but the only people who didn't have eight generations of climbers in their family pedigree. Our early days of climbing were characterized by shame and humiliation, getting harangued to no end in Italian on safety over-sights and sheer climbing ineptitude. "Coza Fai?! Fanculo Americani!" However, the mistakes which were so graciously highlighted by the Italians in hindsight were helpful. Shame and humiliation made me hyper-conscious of what I was doing and they made me and my friend better climbers. I think experienced (although I am still relatively inexperienced) climbers have an obligation to deride and humiliate idiot noobies because it makes them more conscious of safety. The pleasure experienced climbers get from yelling at them is merely part of a reciprocal transaction.
(Had we been conservative Bush advocates we certainly would have gotten our asses kicked on that crag by the best and most hospitable climbers I have ever met.)
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holdplease2
Apr 12, 2004, 4:50 PM
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itakealot:
OK, just for you...
Back in my days of noob-dom, prior to learning to lead and just after a 4-6 weekends of following trad in the gunks (where I was lucky to have a couple of nice mentors)
I hooked up with a group of total noobs in Chicago.
We had one (5.8) leader, Mike (outdoormikeg)
And there were 8 women.
Lucky Mike. ;)
We had not clue #1 how to behave at the crag, but maybe just enough common sense to not be a complete disaster...but here goes.
****A big crowd: We climbed in a big crowd because for that summer we had to follow our one leader around. None of the chi-town "good" climbers would take us out 1 on 1 yet, because we sucked. Also, most of our climbing "practice" came in the crowded chicago gyms.
Therefore, when we went to a crag, it was always a social crowded place...because of us! So we thought that was how it was supposed to be...barely noticing the groups of 2-3 climbers that probably hated us...our numbers made us a overwhelming presence, I am sure. ..But still, it wasn't untill after we learned to set our own TRs and lead a bit that the group broke up and we went out in groups of 2-3. THIS was when we learned the beauty of climbing at a solitary crag in silence. AND when we learned to appreciate the quiet preferred when leading a stressfull route.
****Noise: Because gumbiness led us to being a large group with 1-2 topropes, what else is there to do while waiting? We tried to learn to place gear. We watched other climbers. And we talked. Why not? 8 chatty women at your crag? And we weren't hot? You would have hated it! But we didn't know any better....and nobody ever said anything.
*****Safety: About 1/3 of us had read JL's "how to rock climb" and "anchors" books, but until you get out and try this stuff, 2/3s of it is kinda greek. Until you see it, and are like, so THATS what they mean, it just dosn't sink in. At this lower tail of the learning curve, we probably did some dumb things not meaning too. Mike helped as much as he could, but he was not exactly an old salt. I don't remember anyone ever helping, maybe because we didn't make that many mistakes. Sometimes, though, people would comment on our anchors, saying "this would be better" or "next time try that" and though it ruffeled our fethers and we thought them "safty n***'s" we did learn from it.
*****Communication: For the beginning climber, little success (in terms of clean routes) mixed in with fear, and enthusiasm makes for a noisy climb. If you have to stop climbing 10 times on a route due to no endurance, you either have to fall with rope stretch (scary for a noob) or end up saying "take" loud enough to be heard over your friends chatting...and with so little technique, many moves are 'bumped' through, meaning more obnoxious communication. Only once you can TR that line of 5.7 and 5.8 climbs nice and clean and quietly does it start to annoy you that everyone else shouts all the time...and then you realize maybe you shouldn't have done it to begin with.
*****Eventually: We learned enough to be dangerous on our own, our group disbanded, and we no longer swarmed the crags with 9 people for 2 TRs, stood around talking for hours, or shouted like idiots all day. What brought us to this point was experience...but with a little gentle advice from others at the crag, we might have gotten there faster, even if we felt pissed at the time.
Now some of us live on the road full time and gripe about noobies at the crags. While simultaniously being called noobs and gumbs by older salts than ourselves. Even if we are competant 5.9/10 trad leaders, with hundreds of routes under our belts, there are competant 5.11+ trad leaders with thousands of routes under their belts that hate us for being there...because we don't yet know enough to realize just how much more we need to know...
BTW: Thanks Mike! I owe you.
-Kate.
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rocket
Apr 12, 2004, 4:57 PM
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2) When belaying on sandstone stand up to be ready to dodge rock and catch your climber.
Actually, a belayer, no matter what the type of rock should always be ready and watching their climber. I've seen long-time climbers talking to others with a lot of rope out and not paying attention. "Hey, you might want to take up some slack. You're climbers near the crux."
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boulderqt
Apr 12, 2004, 5:13 PM
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I would want somebody to point out a mistake to me. In a nice way of course. better to look stupid in front of freinds then to die because of a mistake
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laxclimber
Apr 12, 2004, 5:27 PM
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Does anybody realize that at one point we were all "newbies"? Get over yourself already and embrace the fact that climbing has become a popular sport, or activity if you have not yet come to the realization that it is a sport. When you see a "newbie" doing something unsafe, point it out to them. You have no place to tell people that they shouldn't climb in "your" area. Yes, you do need to be worried about your own safety, and yes, you should look out for fellow climbers, but to tell someone that they don't belong at a crag because they are loud or inexperienced is simply unacceptable. I have seen numerous veteran climbers cause far greater problems by using mank gear or bringing their slobbering crag dog everywhere. There are greater problems in the world that rookie climbers, get over yourself, learn to share, realize that you were once a "newbie", and humble yourself for two seconds.
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paintrain
Apr 12, 2004, 5:35 PM
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[quote="itakealot"]
Points taken. And mostly good advice although it sounds like you were far from the "backcountry" and were a bit peaved at its composition.
I think since you have been climbing for awhile you have seen most of this developing the last few years - results of an extreme sport losing its extremeness. Crowds on one or two moderates is fairly common and those who do it are mostly oblivious to the bigger picture anyhow. In some cases they are receptive if you point it out, but mostly not.
Giving advice is an art form, espeically when it is to someone you don't know. Being grumpy doesn't help. Show proficiency, point out politely, and leave the area if you don't like the practices.
Otherwise, sharpen your own skills and hike further.
PT
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