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mattdog
Apr 7, 2004, 1:08 PM
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The Dead Sea Scrolls don't refer to Jesus. They're copies of the Jewish Torah (the first 5 books of the Old Testament.)
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pinktricam
Apr 9, 2004, 12:43 PM
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In reply to: The Dead Sea Scrolls don't refer to Jesus. They're copies of the Jewish Torah (the first 5 books of the Old Testament.)
On the contrary, Mattdog, everything in the Torah refers to Jesus! It the consistent and common thread that runs throughout all of the scriptures (Old and New Testaments)! The Dead Sea Scrolls have done nothing but bolster the authenticity of the Holy Scriptures, what Christians call the Old Testament.
In the Gospel of Luke, we find Jesus giving a little Bible study to a couple of his disciples after the ressurectiuon on the road to Emmaus. Jesus says:
In reply to: 25 And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?" 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
Here's the full context: http://bible1.crosswalk.com/...ontext=1&showtools=1
Happy Easter to all!
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knuckles
Apr 9, 2004, 11:03 PM
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The debate really isn't whether the man existED, but whether or not he currently exists.
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treebeard
Apr 11, 2004, 4:28 AM
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Its funny cause in Idaho there are lots of mormons and they freak if you tell them youre anything but mormon. One thought I worshipped the devil when I told her i was atheist, another told me that for every kid she didnt have, that "soul" would end up in a "sinner" family. :wtf:
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reno
Apr 11, 2004, 4:34 AM
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In reply to: All theological debates aside, show me photographic evidence of Jesus.
Um, Jesus of Nazareth, who was a person (the whole "He was the Son of God" thing is up for debate,) was dead LONG before Eastman-Kodak came on the scene.
Personally, I'm an Insomniac-Dyslexic Agnostic.
I often stay awake at nights, wondering if there really is a dog.
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addictedtosubstances
Apr 11, 2004, 5:48 PM
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reno wins...
as the rest of this thread is pretty ridiculously stupid.
and you can't hold a book accountable for idiotic interpretations.
im pretty sure there's some good stuff in there if you check it out.
just like nearly every major doctrine of any major religion, cool stuff if you think about it. not so cool if you're a raving fundamentalist who places biblical quotes out of context and intereprets the primary hebrew text of the bible in such a way so as to claim that the bible is against homosexuality.
its unfortunate when things like that happen.
and if it weren't for the gospels...
jesus would have been one cool dude who lived pretty well.
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pinktricam
Apr 11, 2004, 5:55 PM
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In reply to: ... not so cool if you're a raving fundamentalist who places biblical quotes out of context and intereprets the primary hebrew text of the bible in such a way so as to claim that the bible is against homosexuality....
Are you saying that it teaches that homosexuality is okay?
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wildtrail
Apr 11, 2004, 6:30 PM
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No, what I think he is saying is that the Bible is often misinterpreted and misquoted. The Bible is really not against homosexuality as much as right wing fundamentalists think it is.
Besides, there is nothing wrong with homosexuality as far as I am concerned and the Bible is probably just a great work in fiction (it's possible--it may be real, it may not be). Again, there is supposed to be separation between church and state and "marriage" has been around longer than the damn Bible or Christianity, so therefore, it is not a "spiritual" union. Sodom and Gomorrah quoters are outdated thinkers without a mind of their own. We are all "God's children" so let he without sin cast the first stone. Or to put it in the scaled down correct version, if God exists, we are merely pee-ons and have no right to judge our fellow men and women. Only God does.
Quit clutching your Bibles and start thinking on your own, people. I have yet to hear one valid arguement against homosexuality or same-sex marriage that doesn't involve religion or religious overtones. Not a one person that protests it has ever had a rational arguement that wasn't plagiarized or regurgitated rhetorical nonsense involving "God" and the Bible. At least, I have yet to hear one. When I do, I'll probably faint due to the fact that there is a thinking right wing fundalmentalist. Then, I'll give him/her due credit because I will be truly impressed with someone against such matters with an original thought.
(this is not directed at you pink, just a statement in general)
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pinktricam
Apr 11, 2004, 6:44 PM
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In reply to: We are all "God's children"
We're all His creation, but not all are His children.
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wildtrail
Apr 11, 2004, 6:48 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: We are all "God's children" We're all His creation, but not all are His children.
Same thing. We are still all his children. Moot point (to use the term as accepted now, though incorrect).
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pinktricam
Apr 11, 2004, 7:52 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: We are all "God's children" We're all His creation, but not all are His children. Same thing. We are still all his children. Moot point (to use the term as accepted now, though incorrect).
Oooh, boy...unfortunately and I truly hope it's not the case, but, you're going to have an eternity to think about this mistaken thinking.
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donie
Apr 11, 2004, 8:02 PM
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mistaken thinking?? in your beliefs what makes a person not "one of "his" children?"
please explain you r view here.............
and if it is only if a person has accepted "him" in his heart you're as narrow as a back water road in the bible belt............ :wink:
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pinktricam
Apr 11, 2004, 8:17 PM
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In reply to: mistaken thinking?? in your beliefs what makes a person not "one of "his" children?" please explain you r view here............. and if it is only if a person has accepted "him" in his heart you're as narrow as a back water road in the bible belt............ :wink:
Uh, oh! Yet another that's gonna have a hot time while eternally re-evaluating the poor choices made here on this brief and finite plane.
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ipsofacto
Apr 11, 2004, 8:43 PM
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In reply to: ...Besides, there is nothing wrong with homosexuality
So, there is nothing wrong with a man taking it up the s h i t t e r ? You've got it all ass backwards. History has proven that there are some decidely dramatic consequences for not placing a safe distance between man and his feces. And lebians? Yikes, I had a couple of those demi-men living in my neighbourhood. About as attractive
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beaner_says_hi
Apr 11, 2004, 9:47 PM
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In reply to: No, what I think he is saying is that the Bible is often misinterpreted and misquoted. The Bible is really not against homosexuality as much as right wing fundamentalists think it is. Besides, there is nothing wrong with homosexuality as far as I am concerned and the Bible is probably just a great work in fiction (it's possible--it may be real, it may not be).
Oooh-rubbing my hands together because I sure do like a good debate! :D YAY!
Okay. First of all, on what basis are you saying the Bible is misinterpreted by those who do not endorse homosexuality?
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reno
Apr 11, 2004, 10:21 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: No, what I think he is saying is that the Bible is often misinterpreted and misquoted. The Bible is really not against homosexuality as much as right wing fundamentalists think it is. Besides, there is nothing wrong with homosexuality as far as I am concerned and the Bible is probably just a great work in fiction (it's possible--it may be real, it may not be). Oooh-rubbing my hands together because I sure do like a good debate! :D YAY! Okay. First of all, on what basis are you saying the Bible is misinterpreted by those who do not endorse homosexuality?
You *sure* you want this debate?
If you're REALLY sure, let me know, and we'll debate.
But you'd better be REALLY sure. Cause I don't pull my punches. ;)
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beaner_says_hi
Apr 11, 2004, 10:58 PM
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If you're talking real, polite debate, sure! I'm a tough ol' warhorse and I enjoy it immensely. I look forward to our discussions. Grabbing a nice, tall, hot cup o' coffee... ;)
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reno
Apr 11, 2004, 11:17 PM
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In reply to: If you're talking real, polite debate, sure! I'm a tough ol' warhorse and I enjoy it immensely. I look forward to our discussions. Grabbing a nice, tall, hot cup o' coffee... ;)
Mine is already brewed... smooth blend of Colombian and Jamacian Blue Mountain. Good stuff.
Now then...
The Bible is written with a HUGE degree of latitude for interpretation. Take the following examples:
I work as a paramedic. Some of my patients have said that I am "truly an angel, doing God's work." (Their words, not mine.) Howeve, the 24-7 provision of Emergency Medical Services requires that I work weekends, including Sundays (today is my Sunday off in the schedule rotation.)
HOWEVER, a literal reading of the bible demands that I be put to death for working on the Sabbath, as written in Exodus 31:15: "For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death." (This is also written in Exodus 35:2, Leviticus 23:3, and Jeremiah 17:22.)
Now since I selected this profession, knowing I would have to work on Sundays, should I be responsible for my own death?
Having been a football fan for my entire life, I find much disconcertion with Deuteronomy, which states in 14:8, "The pig, because it divides the hoof but {does} not {chew} the cud, it is unclean for you. You shall not eat any of their flesh nor touch their carcasses." (Also in Leviticus 11:7.)
Hence, I wonder if the Broncos will be damned, or if they'll be OK since most of them wear gloves in the cold weather of Colorado.
Ever stay awake at night, thinking about stuff? I certainly hope not, since Ecclesiastes 2:23 reads "Because all his days his task is painful and grievous; even at night his mind does not rest. This too is vanity." And we all know that Vanity is a sin, right?
Finally, let's consider this: You're sitting in a coffee house, sipping a latte, and a pretty woman catches your eye. Sorry 'bout your luck, cause you're going to Purgatory (the eternal kind, not the ski resort near Durango) --
Matthew 5:28 - "… but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
So you see, there are MANY MANY verses in the Bible that are open to interpretation. The "ban" of homosexuality is just one of those vague verses.
Your turn.
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addictedtosubstances
Apr 12, 2004, 12:52 AM
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Pinktricam... I am saying that it does not condemn homosexuality.
Also, I would suggest you stop condemning people to hell...
"Uh, oh! Yet another that's gonna have a hot time while eternally re-evaluating the poor choices made here on this brief and finite plane."
It can't be good for your karma...
and it makes you look like a raving lunatic.
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donie
Apr 12, 2004, 1:04 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: mistaken thinking?? in your beliefs what makes a person not "one of "his" children?" please explain you r view here............. and if it is only if a person has accepted "him" in his heart you're as narrow as a back water road in the bible belt............ :wink: Uh, oh! Yet another that's gonna have a hot time while eternally re-evaluating the poor choices made here on this brief and finite plane.
I asked for your view, not another silly sideskew on how i'll spend my time in eternity..........................ill be fine there.....and i'd love to be there when hell freezes over..........the devil will be belaying me and god will be third on the line.....
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beaner_says_hi
Apr 12, 2004, 1:40 AM
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In reply to: Mine is already brewed... smooth blend of Colombian and Jamacian Blue Mountain. Good stuff.
Mmmmm. Tasty! And, how 'bout a cup o' Gevalia next... :D
In reply to: Now then... The Bible is written with a HUGE degree of latitude for interpretation. Take the following examples:
Well, I'll get into Bible translation in a bit, because it's complex. There is quite a bit to it, including how we approach scripture, the significance of Jesus's resurrsction, and the fact that God is working through history and He has opened a new covenant. In opther words, a lot of the law was fulfilled in Christ, but not all of it. But I'll get to that in a minute; let me answer your questions first.
In reply to: I work as a paramedic. Some of my patients have said that I am "truly an angel, doing God's work." (Their words, not mine.) Howeve, the 24-7 provision of Emergency Medical Services requires that I work weekends, including Sundays (today is my Sunday off in the schedule rotation.) HOWEVER, a literal reading of the bible demands that I be put to death for working on the Sabbath, as written in Exodus 31:15: "For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death." (This is also written in Exodus 35:2, Leviticus 23:3, and Jeremiah 17:22.)
Well, there's more to the story. And this is where it really, really helps to have a comprehensive study, a topical study. While I study scripture chapter by chapter for context's sake, I also do topical studies because there are qualifications scattered throughout the Bible. Here's what applies to your situation:
Mark 3:1-5
3:1And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.
3:2And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
3:3And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth.
3:4And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
3:5And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
(There are sometimes concordance numbers scattered through here. I try to remove them, but if I miss any, you'll know what those strange misplaced letters and numbers are for.)
In reply to: Now since I selected this profession, knowing I would have to work on Sundays, should I be responsible for my own death?
No. Jesus healed on the Sabbath, too, much to the dismay of the Pharisees. You would be commended.
In reply to: Having been a football fan for my entire life, I find much disconcertion with Deuteronomy, which states in 14:8, "The pig, because it divides the hoof but {does} not {chew} the cud, it is unclean for you. You shall not eat any of their flesh nor touch their carcasses." (Also in Leviticus 11:7.) Hence, I wonder if the Broncos will be damned, or if they'll be OK since most of them wear gloves in the cold weather of Colorado.
Well, first let's look at what those thing symbolized, and why these things have been fulfilled in Christ. These are called ceremonial laws, which differ from moral laws. While we are still required to keep the moral laws, here is what became of the ceremonial laws, and why:
First, take a look at Isaiah 52:10-12 in order to get a sense of what is meant by unclean:
52:10The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
52:11Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD.
52:12For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.
So we see that Israel is set apart for the Lord, and because of the idolotrous practices of the surrounding nations, God has set this nation apart and they must not intermarry or mix with nations that will lead them astray. It is their sin that makes them unclean, just as my sin made me unclean and everyone including the Israelites had it. So here we have a clue as to those unclean animals, and the symbolism of carcasses.
But to make the connection biblically, and so you can see that this really is the scriptural meaning, I offer for your consideration:
Leviticus 20:25-26
20:25Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean.
20:26And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.
So, why is it differnt now? Because God willed to adopt people from all antions so everyone would have a chance at salvation. As it is written:
Acts 11:5-9
11:5I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:
11:6Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
11:7And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
11:8But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
11:9But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
The Lord's purpose:
Ephesians 2:11-22
2:11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
2:12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
2:13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
2:14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
2:15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
2:16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: F6
2:17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
2:18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
2:19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
2:20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
2:21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
2:22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
There are a lot more really beautiful prooftexts that draw even tighter and more intricate connections; prophecies, and how they were fulfilled to achieve this...it's really quite fascinating. Let me know if you want them and I'd be happy to provide a list.
As for the football, the skin was one of the things that was abolished with the ceremonial law as revealed in Ephesians 2. Even so, it was not an offense that lead to death, even before God gave salvation to the Gentiles. We can see here:
Leviticus 11:39-40
11:39And if any beast, of which ye may eat, die; he that toucheth the carcase thereof shall be unclean until the even.
11:40And he that eateth of the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: he also that beareth the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.
So, now that the ceremonial law has been fulfilled in Christ, the rules about what is unclean and clean has changed, as it is written:
Matthew 15:1-10
15:1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
15:2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
15:3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
15:4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
15:5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
15:6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
15:7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
15:8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
15:9But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
15:10And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
15:11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
And still, the commandment to remain clean exists, but what constitutes clean is no longer a matter of ceremony, which was fulfilled in Christ. It is no longer national boundaries, but spiritual ones.
In reply to: Ever stay awake at night, thinking about stuff? I certainly hope not, since Ecclesiastes 2:23 reads "Because all his days his task is painful and grievous; even at night his mind does not rest. This too is vanity." And we all know that Vanity is a sin, right?
This isn't the kind of vanity that is sinful. He means that it seems in vain. At least, from our perspective. We can't see the reasons, although they are there. But if I have a question, or there's something I do not understand, sometimes I do stay up at night and study. But I just ask. Because it is written:
James 1:5
1:5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
In reply to: Finally, let's consider this: You're sitting in a coffee house, sipping a latte, and a pretty woman catches your eye. Sorry 'bout your luck, cause you're going to Purgatory (the eternal kind, not the ski resort near Durango) -- Matthew 5:28 - "… but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
It's not seeing a member of the opposite sex that is sinful, or even to notice that attractiveness. It's having the wrong kind of desire, or desiring of a person who is off-limits. God made good provisions for us.
BTW, there is no scriptural basis for purgatory.
In reply to: So you see, there are MANY MANY verses in the Bible that are open to interpretation. The "ban" of homosexuality is just one of those vague verses.
It isn't a matter of interpretation; it's a matter of knowing scripture. To understand it properly, we have to come to scripture to see what it says, not what we want it to say, pro or con. In my next post, I'll get into Bible translations-another very important consideration. But moreso, how we approach scripture makes a huge difference.
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scubasnyder
Apr 12, 2004, 2:36 AM
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N i was like dang that post before this was soooo long, i couldnt even start to read it, looked like bable to me
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reno
Apr 12, 2004, 2:36 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Mine is already brewed... smooth blend of Colombian and Jamacian Blue Mountain. Good stuff. Mmmmm. Tasty! And, how 'bout a cup o' Gevalia next... :D
Gevalia? Pshaw... gimme some Folgers to put 'tween my cheek and gum, a cup of hot water to sip, and you can keep the Gevalia. :)
In reply to: Well, I'll get into Bible translation in a bit, because it's complex. There is quite a bit to it, including how we approach scripture, the significance of Jesus's resurrsction, and the fact that God is working through history and He has opened a new covenant. In opther words, a lot of the law was fulfilled in Christ, but not all of it.
**SNIP OF A REALLY GOOD DEBATE**
In reply to: It isn't a matter of interpretation; it's a matter of knowing scripture. To understand it properly, we have to come to scripture to see what it says, not what we want it to say, pro or con. In my next post, I'll get into Bible translations-another very important consideration. But moreso, how we approach scripture makes a huge difference.
So we agree. It's all in how you approach it that matters.
Good debate, 'beaner.
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wildtrail
Apr 12, 2004, 4:58 AM
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Okay, this has gotten ridiculous. :roll:
beaner,
I'd like to debate this with you, but I have found in the past (as this is like the 30th religious debate since I joined two years ago) a few things:
#1 I used to be Catholic and have renounced it for MANY reasons. If you trully want to know why, e-mail me.
#2 I'm agnostic now.
#3 The Bible is extremely contradictory and those with faith refuse to acknowledge that fact (even my Reverend believes so, but that does not change his faith--obviously).
#4 Those that are religious eventually get very defensive and start flaming (not pointing fingers at anyone specifically--i've just seen so in the past)
#5 Every religious debate I have been in I've basically been told, "No Steve, you're wrong." in many ways and basically have been told that my opinions (because that's what they all are) aren't valid and that I'm stupid.
So, I say why bother?
It really doesn't matter. In the end, we're all right because it is our opinions and we believe them. :wink:
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