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skypilot
Apr 16, 2004, 6:47 PM
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:idea: Ethics Question of Falling?
:?: Falling? Is it better to fall or is it better to downclimb?
:?: What is your view?
:!: You should trust your gear if you know what your doing and have the experience. I believe that anyone can place gear, but how solid are your placements. If you took away your cams would you be able to do the same route or have the same sound placements?
Many of the Traditional Climbers that I have had the opportunity to climb with throughout the years have taught me that you should never trust you life to one piece. Rather than testing it, if you know you are in trouble, and you know that you can downclimb to the piece, it would be better to downclimb and hang on the piece than to take a huge fall on it.
:!: When I speak of this consider that I am an Alpinist and that I am not talking about bolts or single pitch routes. We're talking about commited levels of climbing.
:idea: For Example: On a huge mountain, sport climbing ethics don't apply. It would be ridiculous to fall and then lower to the ground to start the route over so you could "redpoint" the route. I guess that would be a question of your own aesthetics.
When I talked to Mark Twight about such a view, he responded: (summarized)
Get up the mountain in an ethical fashion and in the fastest way as possible. The more time you spend exposed increases the chances that you can die or get hurt. If you have to step in a sling, do it. Don't waste time. "The stronger you are, the harder you are to kill"
SKY PILOT
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j_ung
Apr 16, 2004, 7:12 PM
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It depends entirely on what style you want your ascent to be and how committed you are to maintaining it. IMO, there's nothing wrong with doing what you need to do (stepping in slings, etc), as long as you don't spray to the contrary later.
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sly
Apr 17, 2004, 12:18 AM
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What if you fall when your downclimbing?
Dude, I read your post and I can't figure out which one of us has had too much to drink.
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nthusiastj
Apr 17, 2004, 12:34 AM
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My opinion is that anything that you have to do to get down alive goes in alpine. Downclimbing is probably better than falling where there is not much chance of rescue.
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johnnyslimane
Apr 17, 2004, 12:55 AM
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"So I was freeclimbing Mt Vesuvius, when I suddenly lost my grip, so I'm falling and falling, and then I start to think. Hey, havent you been smoking peote for the last six days, and isnt it a possibility that this is all in your head? And it turned out I was right. I've never even been to Mt Vesuvius."
-Hansel
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dredsovrn
Apr 17, 2004, 1:53 AM
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You definitely have to take safety into account. If you think the piece is questionable, or if the fall will likely result in serious injury, by all means down climb to reduce the potential danger. Also, if you are confident in the piece, but just need a rest spot to take another look at the section, downclimbing is also a good option.
If you feel the piece is bomber, and the fall clean, commit to the action, and stay in the moment. Climb through or fall.
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muffin
Apr 17, 2004, 4:57 AM
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:idea: if you have a "choice" maybe you arn't pushing your self to your ability level. just a thought. your post was too boring and silly to read all the way threw. if you are bothering to climb trad and you are climbing trad at a level that you might pop off at you better damn well be sure your gear will hold. if you have a shitty placement you have choices:dubble up, or power threw to the next place ment, or pray to whatever you believe in that the next piece holds.
have I mentiond that I hate to fall? HATE TO FALL!!! let me say that again I HATE TO FALL.
yes yes I know I am a baby leader, so what I have oppions too :p
okay I feel better now.
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itakealot
Apr 17, 2004, 6:02 AM
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for trad, the only ethics for falling are:
the leader must not fall!
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overlord
Apr 17, 2004, 9:16 AM
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its always better to downclimb than to fall. always. unless you are on a sport route and dont want to get to pumped. but then its a tactical decision.
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javaguy
Apr 17, 2004, 3:03 PM
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The etics for iceclimbing is the learder must no fall. It's okey to fall on trad if you have a bomber placement and can take a clean fall.
IMO you seldom have the choice wether you should downclimb or fall. When you are about to fall you often are so lost that it is impossible to start downclimbing without falling.
If you feel you have the choice between downclimbing and taking a fall you should choose to climb on. Most of the time it's just your head playing games with you. That is if the you can take a fall without great risk.
If you are in really deep s***. Maning you can die if you fall, you should seriulsy consider downclimb.
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robmcc
Apr 17, 2004, 5:32 PM
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In reply to: for trad, the only ethics for falling are: the leader must not fall!
Not this decade or last.
Rob
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kackerlaken
Apr 18, 2004, 1:06 AM
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you cant really help it if you fall :?
especialy if you dont want to fall
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brutusofwyde
Apr 18, 2004, 1:35 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: for trad, the only ethics for falling are: the leader must not fall! Not this decade or last. Rob
Some of us aren't from this decade or last...
Brutus (Don't fall. It's a BIG DEAL. You could DIE.) of Wyde
Old Climbers' Home
Oakland, California
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clmbr_wex
Apr 18, 2004, 3:32 AM
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This is a reply to your question about leading without cams:
I think it is very important to leard to lead trad with only passive pro first. Cams are great but nuts, hexes and tricams still hold their own. You can place a bomber nut and you know come heck or high water that will hold. It might be an antiquated view, but its better than noobies coming along with their shiny rack of camalots and placing them totally wrong (not to bash anyone). Most routes can be lead safely with passive pro, and if you are on a route thats not, most likely you have enought skill to hand it. Cams are great as a first peice cause their multidirectional, but true trad"ians" knot about nuts in opposition and stuff like that.
Anyway thats my view on that..sorry if you dont like it but thats how i feel.
On the one piece issue, its never ever good to leave your life to one piece. Thats why anchors are redundant. When your climbing trad you place pieces so if one fails the next one would hold. Usually falls arent killers, its hitting the deck. This again brings up the whole point of knowing how to place gear. Even the experienced make mistakes, but we know if a piece is solid enought. If not, we can back it up if its near a crux. (i do this often if i feel the need to). Those are my dos centos.
Brian
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keithlester
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Apr 18, 2004, 5:52 PM
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Trad climbing in mountains, if you have a choice to fall or downclimb, you should not even consider taking the fall. It aint like sport climbing where every piece is bomber. You might do a whole pitch and only have iffy gear, winter frost damage can leave apparently sound rock cracked and ready to fall.
Every trad climber will tell you stories about holds that came away in their hands, some people even keep them for souvenirs. Its a scary business, dont look for trouble by jumping off when it gets too hard. Climb down, or climb on, cheat if you have to, but get on with it , have an epic and come home safe with another big badass scary tale for the relly's :twisted:
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sly
Apr 19, 2004, 1:04 AM
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When leading, especially in an Alpine envirnment; unless one is truly committed, there will always be hesitency and second guessing.
The good news is that this hesitency and second guessing has lead to many early & safe downclimbs.
The bad news is that nothing great or bold was ever accomplished without total commitment.
In my opionin, if you have troulble committing to the route you are a danger to yourself and worse, your partner & seriously need to reconsider playing in the Alpine arena. Top roping may be a more suitable activity.
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tedc
Apr 19, 2004, 4:48 PM
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Two comments:
If you CAN down climb; climb down. Falling is scarry.
Sometimes you have risk failing (falling) to succeed.
You decide how baddly you want to succeed.
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skypilot
Apr 19, 2004, 5:35 PM
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To Everyone that responded thus far:
Thanks :D
I was curious to see what people had to say and how the modern climbing scene has changed in its ethics. I come from an older school of ethics, when I started not too long ago gear wasn't the same. Some of my climbing adventures have been with Brian Becker, Steve Chaney, Harvey Carter, and still a few others that I won't mention for the sake of privacy.
Once I saw Brian Becker on an outing with him (1st ascent of SuperCrack, Indian Creek....Denali Diamond 1st ascent......Black Dyke Couloir.......etc) downclimb a 5.12 finger crack on lead just because he didn't want to rappell and because his ability and concerns of safety allowed him to do so. He went up and downclimbed the entire climb a 200ft rope faster than most people could climb a 5.8 trad and rappell back down. All gear was retrieved and no falls or hanging was involved.
It (in my opinion) has only been in the last few years that gear has taken quantum leaps, especially ropes and clothing.
My thoughts are don't fall. Pushing too hard is great in a sport area, where one can usually bail in a safe and timely manner.
It goes to say that trad in an alpine setting is definitely much different. Like ice the weather and timing have so much to do with it. The screws may not snap but the ice may break. The cams, nuts, or piton may remain intact but after a certain amount of Kn's the rock is going to blow. One response talked about not trusting your life to one piece, that is correct. I feel that when you fall you exert energy that travel's along the entire length of the rope, and if all your anchors are equalized to that all of them are pulling at the same time you have done your job right.
EX: use of a longer sling on cam placements eliminates the cam from walking, hence all your gear is effected.
Recently someone did some tests, you actually generate more force falling in a short length of the rope from the belay then you do if you are almost done with the pitch. Hence, the invention of dynamics at their best.
Furthermore, we are very fortunate to be climbing in today's world. Many people died to know what we know and sometimes take for granted. I have the first edition of Freedom of the Hills and the latest edition, the two are very similar in many ways....however, the 1st edition talks a lot about not falling because the gear back then did not have the dynamic capabilities that we see today.
In an alpine setting, everything is remote and far from help. The weather is always a problem and the gear isn't always continuous. There are sections where aid is the only option, other times the climbing may be decent but the gear is poor or non-existent. There is a Steve Chaney route on the North Face of Pikes Peak (5.10c @ altitude) that has a 60 foot runout before you get your first piece in (we are talking huge exposure and you are just about to the top '14,000+ft'...way above the Bottomless Cirque). Your first piece is a size four nut. Have fun not worrying about that one!
My hopes is that we can all benefit from such discussions. I always remind myself that Paul Petzyl climbed the Grand Teton in cowboy boots with inadequate knowledge, food, gear, and everything else you can imagine. After that he sought out to make our sport safer, taking notice that more and more people were dieing by the 1950's. He said that he would never again climb without proper attire, knowledge of the mountains (rock, ice, snow, and altitude), and food. If it wasn't for people like him and Yvon Chournard, where would we be today.
I encourage all of you to experience climbing in hobnail boots or old canvas shoes on hemp or goldcore line (@ armysurplus stores), pitons, hammer, no chalk [Thanks], oval carabiners (steel), a bag of rocks and tons of webbing to make chock stones, and a ton of courage. It changed my life to experience this.
In the first edition of Freedom of the Hills, you will find a chapter on "WHEN TO BELAY".....just imagine that......considering when it was more work to belay than to just solo until you felt uncomfortable. And try a body belay sometime....I think you will respect having a harness, a belay device, and all of the other gear that we have been blessed with.
WE ALL LOSE BUT DON'T LOSE THE LESSON......know when to go home. Not everyday in the alpine world or in a first ascent setting will consist of Freedom of the Hills type anchors....I have witnessed people get themselves into serious trouble or kill one another because they pushed too hard and refused to leave gear behind........it is worth your life.
Climb safe and with good sporting conscience.....
Jason Wilson
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