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daveh_cdn
Apr 19, 2004, 6:43 AM
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I am trying to decide which of these items I should buy for use during top rope solos. I'm gonna back up with tie-in knots along the way too, so I will have a backup. I'm not worried about the strength of the device. Both are good for what I'll be doing. I'm not going to be leading on it (only tr'ing easy stuff) so that isn't really a factor.
I am under the impression that the Ascension will not automatically follow me up the rope as I go, and I will have to pull it every once in a while. :?
Will the Mini Traxion follow me up easier? If it does I would like to get that device... if not, then I might as well get the Ascension because it has more potential features (and is cheaper).
I am also under the impression that both devices are toothed for use when catching rope. I currently climb on a 10.5 mm Dynamic. How much damage will a catch (my body weight of 165 lbs) do to my rope?
Thanks in advance for your help,
Dave
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keithlester
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Apr 19, 2004, 1:06 PM
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I wouldn't reccomend any toothed device for the purpose you state. They inevitably cause excessive wear on the rope, compared to devices using a camming method and smooth faced cams. I have a little experience of self belayed TR. I use the Petzl Shunt, but I am aware that other climbers dont like them. They do however follow you up the rope easily, and dont have to be re-oriented if you need to bail out and Rap off.
If you search on self belayed TR you should find oodles of advice as this subject comes round regularly.
Hope that was of some use to you. :)
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flamer
Apr 19, 2004, 3:38 PM
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The ascension is rated by petzl as a top rope device. I've used it and fallen pretty hard on it on 2 occasion's.
Yopu do not want these device's "following" you. You should be pushing them along ABOVE you. If they "follow" , you could potential create the same kind of force as a lead fall-albeit a small one. The ascension is not rated for this.
HAVE FUN!!
josh
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d.ben
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Apr 19, 2004, 3:42 PM
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search google for guide to self belay. There you will find a pretty comprehensive article outlining most solo device's pro's/con's.
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ricardol
Apr 19, 2004, 3:50 PM
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wouldn't a grigri work just fine for a TR setup? --
-- ricardo
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keithlester
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Apr 19, 2004, 3:54 PM
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In reply to: wouldn't a grigri work just fine for a TR setup? -- -- ricardo
The only problem with the Gri Gri is that its possible to fall in such a way that the rope is loaded over the edge of the pulley shaped section of the cam, which is sharp enough to sever the rope. Some people do a mod, which involves filing to remove some metal and change the line that the rope takes through the device, but I would not try that, nor recommend it.
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jimdavis
Apr 19, 2004, 4:35 PM
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This topic has been covered to death....
No ascender/ rope grab is OK to TR solo with. They all have a camming action which can sever a rope with a high enough load. How much good is a backup knot going to do you if it severs the line?
Why do you think rescue teams won't use gri-gri's?
If your going to solo, spend the money to get the right device, one MADE for it.
If you need to ask people on the internet about what's safe, you shouldn't be out soloing.
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semisteep
Apr 19, 2004, 4:49 PM
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I use an Ushba ascender. It has no teeth and works great. The weight of a water bottle on the end of the line is enough to make it feed really well. I have fallen on it repeatedly and use it often at the Ouray Ice Park and on rock routes. I back it up with a prussik above the device and on longer routes I will sometimes back up with knots.
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daveh_cdn
Apr 19, 2004, 5:12 PM
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"If you need to ask people on the internet about what's safe, you shouldn't be out soloing."
I dont remember asking that question. I do however remember asking if the mini traxion moves up the rope easier than a Ascension, and how much damage will be done to my 10.5 dynamic if I put my weight on it.
Thanks for your "help" though.
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ricardol
Apr 19, 2004, 5:37 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: wouldn't a grigri work just fine for a TR setup? -- -- ricardo The only problem with the Gri Gri is that its possible to fall in such a way that the rope is loaded over the edge of the pulley shaped section of the cam, which is sharp enough to sever the rope. Some people do a mod, which involves filing to remove some metal and change the line that the rope takes through the device, but I would not try that, nor recommend it.
.. are there any documented cases of this happening? -- or just a possibility --
-- ricardo
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flamer
Apr 19, 2004, 5:47 PM
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[quote="jimdavis"]No ascender/ rope grab is OK to TR solo with. They all have a camming action which can sever a rope with a high enough load.
WRONG!!
Why do you think rescue teams won't use gri-gri's?
BECAUSE THEY ARE STUCK IN THEIR WAYS!! AND BECAUSE THEY DON"T HAVE MUCH USE FOR THEM IN RESCUE SCENARIO'S- BUT MOST(WELL THE ONES THAT ACTUALLY CLIMB) USE THEM ON THEIR DAY OFF....
If your going to solo, spend the money to get the right device, one MADE for it.
AGREED
quote]
josh
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adamwvt
Apr 19, 2004, 6:54 PM
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I have found that the mini traxion feeds much better. I use it for top rope aid soloing though. Is that pathetic or what?
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jimdavis
Apr 19, 2004, 7:06 PM
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[quote="flamer"]In reply to: No ascender/ rope grab is OK to TR solo with. They all have a camming action which can sever a rope with a high enough load. WRONG!! Why do you think rescue teams won't use gri-gri's? BECAUSE THEY ARE STUCK IN THEIR WAYS!! AND BECAUSE THEY DON"T HAVE MUCH USE FOR THEM IN RESCUE SCENARIO'S- BUT MOST(WELL THE ONES THAT ACTUALLY CLIMB) USE THEM ON THEIR DAY OFF.... If your going to solo, spend the money to get the right device, one MADE for it. AGREED quote] josh
I'm on a rescue team dude. We don't use them because they will sever a rope, if you don't believe me contact Petzl about it.
Why do you think they made the ID? And another company makes the "Rescue 540." http://storrick.cnchost.com/...es/MiscBelay756.html
What's the logic behind marketing devices that cost more than twice what a Gri-Gri's does if they're ok to use?
Camming devices are not designed to take shock loads. Falling on an Ascender, a Traxion, ect with enough energy generated (i.e. enough slack) will cut your rope. Gri-Gri's with a high enough load (i.e. rescue-load) will cut your rope.
Why do you think the Wren Silent Partner which is designed for soloing opperates on a clove hitch, not a cam based grab?
Sorry, but I know what I'm taking about here.
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wonderbread
Apr 19, 2004, 8:21 PM
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Jim your wrong. I don't believe you have a clue what you are talking about. First off you asked what good a back up knot will do if you sever the rope. If you are even remotely qualified to rescue something more than a cat out of a tree you should be able to think this one through. Next, gri-gri's are safe and aren't going to sever a rope. Can you provide ONE example of when a gri-gri cut a rope? Just one Jim? Next, guides use gri-gri all the time due to the applications in rescue scenarios. You'd learn this if you took an AMGA course. Also, my mini traxion came with instructions on how to use it as a tr solo device. Was Petzl lying to me? Are they trying to get me killed? What tests have you done on petzl equipment, where can I read your results? How many of these tests have you done?
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d.ben
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Apr 19, 2004, 8:24 PM
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can someone please explain to me how I'm gonna fall more than a foot, and sever my rope TR soloing with an acsender at my chest level. It's always folowing me up right there with me. I don't get it. when I fall TR solo it's more like just coming off the rock and the rope stretching a little( I'm 120lbs).
btw I'm using a petzl basic, Petzl says it's correct to use it for self belay.
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flamer
Apr 19, 2004, 10:32 PM
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In reply to: I'm on a rescue team dude. We don't use them because they will sever a rope, if you don't believe me contact Petzl about it. Why do you think they made the ID? And another company makes the "Rescue 540." http://storrick.cnchost.com/...es/MiscBelay756.html What's the logic behind marketing devices that cost more than twice what a Gri-Gri's does if they're ok to use? Camming devices are not designed to take shock loads. Falling on an Ascender, a Traxion, ect with enough energy generated (i.e. enough slack) will cut your rope. Gri-Gri's with a high enough load (i.e. rescue-load) will cut your rope. Why do you think the Wren Silent Partner which is designed for soloing opperates on a clove hitch, not a cam based grab? Sorry, but I know what I'm taking about here.
Being on a rescue team may be part of your problem!!HaHa!!
It is NOT the camming action that is the problem....it's the teeth.
I don't think you could impact a smooth "camming action" device with enough force to sever a nylon rope. Certainly not one of the device's mentioned.
Now that we've learned what ISN'T the problem why don't we explore what is...hmmm??
The Teeth on a "toothed" ascend of any kind can (and have) cut through the sheath and core of nylon ropes. Inorder to do this you would have to generate a significant force, ie one along the lines of a lead fall.
Petzl has rated their ascension and basic ascender for TOPROPE soloing for a very long time. While TR soloing you should NOT generate a fall with enough force to do ANY damage to the rope. Why??? Because the spring loaded camming action keeps the teeth right where they need to be on the rope(assuming the device has been properly pushed up the rope with NO slack in the system). This is where using something like a Ti-bloc is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. WHY??? Because the Ti-bloc has LONGER AND SHARPER teeth- and must be manually set on the rope. If you were to take even a Toprope fall on a Ti-bloc you could easily tear into the sheath.
Get it?
Maybe you should ask petzl?
josh
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flamer
Apr 19, 2004, 10:34 PM
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In reply to: What's the logic behind marketing devices that cost more than twice what a Gri-Gri's does if they're ok to use?
Ummm....because techno-rescue-geek types will buy them????
josh
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flamer
Apr 19, 2004, 10:36 PM
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In reply to: Why do you think the Wren Silent Partner which is designed for soloing opperates on a clove hitch, not a cam based grab?
Ever heard of 2 other Wren products...the Soloist and the solo aid???
Ever looked at either one of them???
CAMS!!!!!
sorry I couldn't resist these last 2 comments...it's been a bad couple of days and I needed to get a little rowdy.
josh
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jimdavis
Apr 19, 2004, 11:56 PM
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In reply to: Jim your wrong. I don't believe you have a clue what you are talking about. First off you asked what good a back up knot will do if you sever the rope. If you are even remotely qualified to rescue something more than a cat out of a tree you should be able to think this one through.
On a TR solo, backup knots are tied below the Ascender, thus if you cut the rope above it...what do you think is gonna happen?
In reply to: Next, guides use gri-gri all the time due to the applications in rescue scenarios. You'd learn this if you took an AMGA course.
It's funny you mention that, because I'm friends with the guy who WROTE the AMGA TRSM course. Maybe you've heard of him, Jon Tierney, does articles for Rock and Ice. BTW, I've taken a course he wrote for credit at my school that is almost exactally the same as the AMGA TR course, and I work with 4 people that are all either TRSM or Rock Instructor certified.
Also, a climbing load doesn't qualify as a Rescue Load simply because the climber is being rescued. Rescue loads involve multiple people on a line and a patient typically in a litter. Devices are tested to rescue standards at 200kg's.
Maybe your talking about drop loops or Z-Drags for guiding rescue...which I teach people on courses. Or maybe your talking about compound complex haul systems, which I've also taught people and have used multiple times in Rescue Trainings.
In reply to: What tests have you done on petzl equipment, where can I read your results? How many of these tests have you done?
"Strictly speaking all belay devices for a full rescue load are being operated outside of manufacturers recommendations."
I'm sure if you get in contact with either MDI SAR or Lincoln County SAR in Maine, they'll give your their numbers and resources on this information.
The Pro-Traxion is a Wall Hauler. Ascenders are not ment for it, and I'd be hesitant about using a Pro-Traxion for this purpose. This if from the Petzl page about the Pro-Traxion, and here's the link.
"Breaking load in use as self-jamming pulley: 4 kN."
http://www.petzl.com/...eil=&ProduitAssocie=
Just cause you have your AMGA TRSM cert doesn't mean you know everything; they've been talking about upping the standards for that course for years. Some guides even have 100% pass rates on that course. A cert doesn't replace research.
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wonderbread
Apr 20, 2004, 3:10 AM
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On TR solo knots are NOT tied below the ascender. That was a pretty big hint, do you think you can figure it out now??? Next, if I am tr soloing why would I have multiple people on a rope and one in a litter? I don't take 4 people soloing with me, do you?
Also go to the petzl page and read the first paragraph about the mini-traxion. The one where they say that it can be used as a self belay device, and I will ask you once again-Is petzl lying to me? Are they trying to kill me? Do you think you are better educated to tell me what their products can and can't do than petzl???
And finally you said earlier that people file their gri-gris so they won't cut the rope, this is also wrong. People file their gri-gris in order to make them auto feed.
Look, you may know what you are talking about in rescue situations, but you seem to be pretty clueless about climbing and tr soloing.
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wonderbread
Apr 20, 2004, 3:17 AM
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jimdavis wrote
"I'm just learning Trad now, lead my first pitch yesterday....longest 5.5 i've ever done. Took my 30 mins to climb 90 feet of switchbacking slab"
Sorry Jim, but I think you should perhaps be a little more qualified to talk about advanced climbing systems.
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adamwvt
Apr 20, 2004, 9:25 AM
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Once while top rope soloing with my mini, my jacket got caught up in the cam, and I almost shiat myself.
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johnhenry
Apr 20, 2004, 10:20 AM
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To answer your original question amigo....
Yes the mini-traxion will feed much smoother than the ascension.
It is also great for Jugging! Incredibly versitile piece of equipment.
Rock on,
john
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daveh_cdn
Apr 20, 2004, 4:57 PM
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In reply to: To answer your original question amigo.... Yes the mini-traxion will feed much smoother than the ascension.
Awesome bro. Thats definately what I'm gonna pick up then.
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jimdavis
Apr 21, 2004, 5:26 AM
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In reply to: On TR solo knots are NOT tied below the ascender. That was a pretty big hint, do you think you can figure it out now???
You wanna explain how you can put backup knots in on a Top Rope, soloing...and not have it be below the Ascender? Where are your backup knots when your jugging? It's the same principle, unless we're talking about completly different systems.
In reply to: Also go to the petzl page and read the first paragraph about the mini-traxion. The one where they say that it can be used as a self belay device, and I will ask you once again-Is petzl lying to me?
"Breaking load in use as self-jamming pulley: 4 kN. "
http://www.petzl.com/...eil=&ProduitAssocie=
So you think it's ok to trust your life to a system that's rated to 4kn's? I think Petzl is refering to moving along a fixed line in a mountaineering sense, not as in soloing rock climbing where the energy created in a fall will be much greater.
In reply to: And finally you said earlier that people file their gri-gris so they won't cut the rope, this is also wrong. People file their gri-gris in order to make them auto feed.
Can you tell me where I ever talked about filing...it's news to me.
In reply to: Look, you may know what you are talking about in rescue situations, but you seem to be pretty clueless about climbing and tr soloing.
No, I'm concervative. I've taken Big Wall, and Self Rescue classes with Mark Synnott. I've taken Top Roping Classes, Aid seminars, Jugging lessons, taught TR Anchors courses, Intermediate Climbing courses, ect, all so I know that I can get myself out of pretty much any situation that I'll encounter climbing. I just started leading cause up until recently I haven't had the money for my own gear. So many you can place your gear a little quicker than I can, but I know my systems.
In reply to: Next, if I am tr soloing why would I have multiple people on a rope and one in a litter? I don't take 4 people soloing with me, do you?
I was talking about a Gri-Gri's effectivness as a Rescue Load bearing device. Backing up my point that a Gri-Gri will cut a rope at a high enough load. I'm getting tired of arguing with you, I'm gonna email Petzl and let you know what they say about it.
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