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socalbolter
Apr 20, 2004, 1:50 AM
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I'm currently in the process of writing an instructional manual on coursesetting. I'd welcome any input as to what types of topics you'd like to see covered in it. I've got a pretty complete outline already, but am always open to other's ideas and thoughts. Thanks!
Also, as an appendix to the book I plan on including a complete list of hold companies with contact info. If there are any companies out there that you think I might miss please PM me with contact info. Thanks again!
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pianomahnn
Apr 20, 2004, 3:50 PM
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Post your index, that way we can comment on what should be added. It's pointless for us to ramble off topics and have you reply with "Already added."
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fiend
Apr 20, 2004, 3:53 PM
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The pianomahnn lives? :P
By coursesetting I assume you mean routesetting? Or is this a guideline for competition routesetting?
Routesetting is a talent... you either have it or you don't. Other than general guidelines about overtightening the bolts, proper taping techniques and bolt hanger placements I'm not sure what you could really write about.
It'd be like reading a how-to guide for painting or ballet.
I'd be curious to see the outline and appendix though.
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fredrogers
Apr 20, 2004, 4:04 PM
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This is an area that's pretty devoid of info in the literature so I guess it couldn't hurt. I think it's a learned skill that's best taught in person and requires tons of practice. But some route-setters don't have anyone to teach them. Your book will be good for them.
You should encourage routesetters to clean the holds. I know it's not a fun task but it can get so nasty climbing on filthy holds.
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andy_reagan
Apr 20, 2004, 4:21 PM
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looking foward to reading.
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ax
Apr 20, 2004, 4:42 PM
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Yeah I also have always refered to it as "route setting"
And yeah it is more of an Art than a science.
There are many things that aspiring routesetters need to know in addition to bolts and what-not.
I've been routesetting for over 10 years now and have seen and learned much.
I sent you a PM with some more if my thoughts... check it out.
Matter of fact... I'm gonna have me a custom shirt made up with "Master Route Setter" on it heh heh... or maybe "Journyman Route Setter"
...at that http://www.HometownHookups.com website.
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j_ung
Apr 20, 2004, 4:43 PM
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In reply to: Routesetting is a talent... you either have it or you don't. Other than general guidelines about overtightening the bolts, proper taping techniques and bolt hanger placements I'm not sure what you could really write about.
I agree that coursetting takes talent, especially in regards to visualization, but I've seen many no-talent hacks turn into decent setters. If you take a no-technique toproper and hand him a couple wrenches, sure, he'll blow the job. But with constructive feedback, practice and a growing repertoire of climbing moves and experience, he'll get steadily better.
I'm not sure what to include in your manual, but here's a few of the most common mistakes I see:
1. New course setters often set themselves up to fail by forcing a route into existence. There's a "zen" to course setting that involves allowing a route to develop logically. At first, that may mean setting only the most basic of moves at the lowest of levels.
2. New course setters often fall into the trap of setting every move at the uppermost level of what they can do, and in the process, fail to take into account the route as a whole. They set pieces of a route and never make the mental leap needed for the link up. Often, the resulting creation "doesn't go".
3. Beginners tend to spend too much time and effort to force a single move, while neglecting the rest of the route. I've seen people spend hours on one move, only to get dehydrated or just plain lose focus for the rest of the effort. They end up with a stopper move surrounded by easy climbing.
4. Mechanically speaking, picking the right bolt for the job, keeping holds and bolts organized and learning how and when to re-tap threads are all pretty key points cover.
socalbolter, I'm very interested in seeing your final version! Please keep us posted.
PS - Are you going to include any of the uniquely setter-esque aid climbing moves that we all use? Seems to me you could write a whole book on just that! :wink:
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fiend
Apr 20, 2004, 4:47 PM
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Good points there.
I'd add that not all plastic climbing should be tracking. In my opinion, indoor climbing should mimic that which can be found outdoors. Yeah, it's fun to set the odd wacky route but your whole gym should not be filled with them.
Aspiring routesetters should climb at different gyms on different setters' climbs to get a feel for how others do it. Some gyms I've been to have four or five setters yet all the routes have the same horrid style.
You're allowed to add footholds to indoor climbs!!!
Rock Oasis route-setters.... I'm looking in your direction with that last comment ;)
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ramylson
Apr 20, 2004, 5:06 PM
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I've actually gotten more into setting route at my local gym, and a lot of my experiences on real rock I transpose indoors (at least try). Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But, like previously mentioned, a lot of it just stems from visualization. You need to image the route/problem, and how you (or others) would climb it. Getting the "set" to flow, is your ultimate goal, and should be worked into. Don't be afraid to call a spade a spade.. if the route/problem sucks: either massage it into something better (if it's really not that far off), or start over from complete scratch. Mileage helps a lot, both good and bad sets. Eventually you'll get the "feel" for things and be able to produce better routes/problems. Start low in the grades, eventually working up in difficulty. The other thing that I've noticed helps a lot is starting with boulder problems first. Less to think/worry about.. and, easier to fix if there is a problem as the majority of the problem is right in front of you (don't have to jug up the entire route to fix a problem). All of these things help you determine what works, and what doesn't..
Last big of advice I would have is be mindful of your size, compaired to everyone else that might climb that route/problem. It might be a move you can do due to height, but how about a younger or smaller climber. Adjust routes to allow a broad spectrum of climbers the ability of trying your route/problem. A good rule of thumb is making hand holds no greater then a span from hand to elbow apart. Meaning, if you're at your last hold, you're next hold should be where your elbow would "reach". Obviously, that doesn't really apply to dyno's. But, in doing so, it'll help you figure out foot placements, etc.
Umm.. that's all I can think of right now.
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rockjim
Apr 22, 2004, 3:57 PM
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I didnt want to create a new topic because my question is close to this thread. Anyway, I am looking for some feedback on new ways of marking routes in our new gym. Tape vs. colored holds. I'm pretty much educated on the pros and cons of each. We want a clutter free look of not having tape, but I know the impracticality of setting by color of holds. Does anyone have any other ideas? Thanks in advance.
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ax
May 8, 2004, 1:37 AM
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Hey it's me again... I just went through Tony Yaniro's route setting certification course. It was very good indeed. I highly recommend it if you ever get the chance. I've added many new tricks to my toolbox. And I'm officially certified... yippie!
Can't wait to see your course setting manual.
how's it coming?
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ax
May 8, 2004, 1:44 AM
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In reply to: I didnt want to create a new topic because my question is close to this thread. Anyway, I am looking for some feedback on new ways of marking routes in our new gym. Tape vs. colored holds. I'm pretty much educated on the pros and cons of each. We want a clutter free look of not having tape, but I know the impracticality of setting by color of holds. Does anyone have any other ideas? Thanks in advance.
I've seen and tried a lot of different things and in the mean time I got really good at taping... and it's the best thing I've found so far. It's up to the setter, wall manager, and/or gym personel to make sure the tape is stuck and lookin' good.
I have a hard enough time sometimes finding the perfect hold for some moves... I can't imagine limiting myself to a specified color of hold... that sucks!
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pawilkes
May 8, 2004, 1:58 AM
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i know very little about setting but one thing that my home gym does is to stack holds so that there's a little hold on a huge hold. it allows for more flexable use of holds and can actually make things more realistic. it's kind of hard to describe but it's great for pinches, small toe hooks, thumb locks...things like that
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rmiller
May 8, 2004, 2:05 AM
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[quote="fiend"]You're allowed to add footholds to indoor climbs!!!quote]
PRG setters in Tempe should listen to that advice too and when the book comes out, they should take it home and study it for hours!
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rmiller
May 8, 2004, 2:08 AM
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In reply to: You're allowed to add footholds to indoor climbs!!! quote] PRG setters in Tempe should listen to that advice too and when the book comes out, they should take it home and study it for hours!
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pushsendnorcal
May 8, 2004, 4:35 AM
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Just some tips ive found, not in order of importance
1- There are different types of difficulty, not everything has to have full spans to be hard. Small accurate deadpoints, hard cross throughs, body tension from opposing side pulls. So forth and so forth
2- Choose the routes style before you are on the wall so you have some direction. Is the route going to be sustained or boulder problems linked together by easier climbing. Will there be an obvious jug rest or will the rest come from hidden foot placements ie toe hooks, heel rests.
3- Choose the routes direction. Does it go straight up or cut across at a point. This is an easy one because typically you have to set up the ropes before setting. Unless your route wall can be accessed entirely by a ladder
4- Mix it up. Outdoors typically has very similar holds throughout the route, ceuse=pockets, rifle=blocky pinches/edges, smith=edges, maple=cobbles. Try having a variety of holds (edges, jugs, pinches, pockets, slopers in all hand positions)
5- My opinion DO NOT SET A LADDER OF HOLDS. It is just boring, left right left right. Put matches, crosses, drive-by's
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c-money
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May 8, 2004, 8:05 AM
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The nice climbing site @ www.niceclimbing.com has a little online guide to route setting that is worth checking out... www.niceclimbing.com/use.html
Tape vs Coloured holds - Using tape has way fewer organizational headaches... until you run out....
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fjielgeit
May 8, 2004, 7:01 PM
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Regarding routesetting and a manual, the exterior setting of lines is dependent on who you are setting for. Yes, a manual is necessary for your company or school files and to refer to (very good business pracise to document everything you do regarding your indoor wall), BUT route setting is a matter of practise and doing, always considering who your constituents are (comp, general public, beginners). As a tech rep for an indoor rock climbing wall manufacturer, before I set routes on one of our projects, I ask who, what, where, how and why or why not type questions of the owner/manager. Who am I setting for (what grades do they climb), where is in relation to the arrangement of the gym -- do I have a marque view that I want to hilight for the top end (climbing is great audience participation). How do I want to set the route -- i.e. if I am setting lines for a fitness center, and a predominate number of participants will be beginners up to strong novice, I will routinely start easy and progress hard so clients can work routes higher and higher, achieve some success with each outing until they top out . . . I want every participant to have success. If I am setting for an actual climbing gym, each line has its own character from bone killing boulder starts to tricky mid sections, etc. Vision is the key based on clients needs. Know what your clients want, then challenge them a bit, but not so much they get discouraged. Enough. Fjielgeit.
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