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clandestino
Apr 20, 2004, 9:22 PM
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i am realy stoked on climbing this beutifull line(FA-it),which has a thin finger crack sneaking up the second half but the first 30ft is a fairly
smooth wall with just a few pockets.
I would like the best to go ground up with no bolts placed ... so i am seeking some input on how to protect the first half via those pockets...
The rock is a conglomerate ... a sandstone with pebbles in it ...and where
those pebbles have fallen out are pockets/shallow holes 1.5 to 4 inches
in diametre and rounded walls ...
()
GOT ANY IDEA?thanx
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pullonthis
Apr 20, 2004, 9:27 PM
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How about tricams? They work great in pinscars (which are rounded) and you can get all different sizes for different sized pockets. All you need is a small divot or crystal in the rock to put the stinger on, and those babies are bomber!
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gds
Apr 20, 2004, 9:28 PM
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agreed! Tricams seem to be the best choice.
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jumaringjeff
Apr 20, 2004, 9:29 PM
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tricams. used 'em for same purpose yesterday on whitehorse. amazing.
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caughtinside
Apr 20, 2004, 9:29 PM
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my first thought was tricams as well, but if its a conglomerate where cobbles have popped out, the surrounding divots may be too shallow, or the rock too loose to hold a fall on gear. Not having a clear picture of what these 'placements' look like make it hard to tell though.
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tedc
Apr 20, 2004, 10:13 PM
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If the holes are that big(1.5-4") a TCU would probably work just as well as a tricam. May even get a bit better purchase if the sides are less than parallel. Definitely quicker to place on lead.
Hooks may work. :shock: Or hang from a hook and be creative. I've seen pockets where you can insert a hex or nut and when you turn it 90 degrees or something it will hold. No one says you have to use traditional climbing gear. Go to the hardware store and see what might work.
WORST CASE. Climb, hang from hook in pocket, drill small hole, insert one of those Removable Bolts from Climb Tech, clip and repeat.
If you do anything I said you may get killed. Then again you may get killed if you don't do any of the things I said.
WOW that puts alot of responsibility on my shoulders if you think about it that way.
Hey post a pic of what you end up using. You don't have to take the pic on lead. :D :wink:
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clandestino
Apr 20, 2004, 10:20 PM
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thanks for such a quick responces...
First thing i have tried was tricams ... sides of holes are too rounded
(crater like)...
...also too shallow for cams ...
Have not tried hex though ...
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kalcario
Apr 20, 2004, 10:21 PM
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*WORST CASE. Climb, hang from hook in pocket, drill small hole, insert one of those Removable Bolts from Climb Tech, clip and repeat. *
Climb, hang from hook in small pocket, pocket in chossy conglomerate disintegrates, fall, hit ground, hike to top (in plaster cast), rappel, drill, bolt, send, repeat.
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deleted
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Apr 20, 2004, 10:23 PM
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[quote:9509642427="tedc"]WORST CASE. Climb, hang from hook in pocket, drill small hole, insert one of those Removable Bolts from Climb Tech, clip and repeat.[/quote:9509642427]
i agree -- that [i:9509642427]is[/i:9509642427] a worst case senario, because then you'd have a silly line of bolt holes for no reason other than you can't climb the route given your present level of ability. there [i:9509642427]is[/i:9509642427] such a thing as leaving lines for those who can put them up in good style.
if small tricams or tcu's don't work, ballnutz might. perhaps you can find some old, dried-up tradster -- try the nursing home -- and trade him some cheap whisky for his old sliders.
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clandestino
Apr 20, 2004, 10:58 PM
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In reply to: tedc wrote: WORST CASE. Climb, hang from hook in pocket, drill small hole, insert one of those Removable Bolts from Climb Tech, clip and repeat. mtngeo wrote: i agree -- that is a worst case senario, because then you'd have a silly line of bolt holes for no reason other than you can't climb the route given your present level of ability. there is such a thing as leaving lines for those who can put them up in good style.
i don't intend to aid it ... it looks very climbable to me ... just need to
put some pro before the crack ....
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boltdude
Apr 21, 2004, 5:52 AM
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It's 30 feet, is the landing nice & flat? Do you have lots of friends who boulder and would let you borrow a pile of crashpads?
Just a suggestion, obviously depends ENTIRELY on the particular situation...
As far as pro, if tri-cams and cams don't work, hexes probably won't work.
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tradklime
Apr 21, 2004, 1:09 PM
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Sounds like you are looking for something that doesn't exist, some sort of super suction cup thingy.
If you want to do it in good style, sack up and solo to the crack. Otherwise, hand drill a bolt on lead. Or, leave it until you can do the aforementioned.
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tedc
Apr 21, 2004, 3:41 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: tedc wrote: WORST CASE. Climb, hang from hook in pocket, drill small hole, insert one of those Removable Bolts from Climb Tech, clip and repeat. mtngeo wrote: i agree -- that is a worst case senario, because then you'd have a silly line of bolt holes for no reason other than you can't climb the route given your present level of ability. there is such a thing as leaving lines for those who can put them up in good style. i don't intend to aid it ... it looks very climbable to me ... just need to put some pro before the crack ....
Whatever dude.
Sounds to me like you only have a few choices. (You must already be desperate if you are seeking help on the internet.)
You can:
RAP BOLT :evil:
A0 the start and either leave it an A0 5.? route or hand drill a bolt on A0 lead than go back for the "free ascent". 8^)
Suck it up and run out the first 30' for a 5.? R. :shock:
Leave the route for someone brave enough to do it in a style that mtgeo would aprove of. :P
or, oh yes, suction cups. :lol:
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tedc
Apr 21, 2004, 3:52 PM
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In reply to: i agree -- that is a worst case senario, because then you'd have a silly line of bolt holes for no reason other than you can't climb the route given your present level of ability. there is such a thing as leaving lines for those who can put them up in good style.
I don't know the local area or ethic at all so if this "conglomerate" is english grit then ignore this post BUT; I think putting in a bolt, on lead,(even A0) to protect an otherwise unprotectable first 30' is pretty good style. Would the style be better if route was climbed without a bolt?? I'd say it's debatable. Maybe, but it will likely never get climbed much.
Style is not exactly equivelant to BOLDNESS.
Please don't overreact to this statement and turn this into a bolt war.
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taualum23
Apr 21, 2004, 4:05 PM
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tedc- thank you. That is exactly what I was thinking while reading this. While lead-bolting (including A0 lead) is better style than rap bolting, that does not neccesarily mean that soloing (running out-semantics) the first 30 feet is much better syle (if at all) than the lead bolting. Boldness may be a component of good style (and very often is) but the two are not synonomous.
From the sound of this line, the first 30 feet are pretty close to unprotectable, and a ground up bolt to protect it doesn't sound unreasonable. ASSUMING, OF COURSE, that the local ethic allows ANY bolts, ever.
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cedk
Apr 21, 2004, 4:13 PM
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You may have to make a Perilous Journey with no protection. It's been done before.
Lots of great routes have been put up on lead with hooks and hand drills though.
Don't get hurt.
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caughtinside
Apr 21, 2004, 4:16 PM
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In reply to: While lead-bolting (including A0 lead) is better style than rap bolting, that does not neccesarily mean that soloing (running out-semantics) the first 30 feet is much better syle (if at all) than the lead bolting. Boldness may be a component of good style (and very often is) but the two are not synonomous.
Gee, there sure are a lot of rules in climbing. Better do it in the right style or the internet jockeys will be all over your ass! :P
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dirtineye
Apr 21, 2004, 4:33 PM
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First, waht is hte grade of the first thirty feet?
Second, what about splitter two cams?
Third, whoever suggested ballnuts in a pocket, that's a really bad idea. Ball nuts do not go in round pockets. SHAME.
Fourth, what about just training for the route? if it has pockets as big as you say for thirty feet to a crack, that should be doable
Fifth, have you thought of trying tensioned opposition?
There si no way I would drill it. That's just me personally. A piton, that's another story. again just personal opinion.
I like the crash pad idea.
There is also no law agaisnt top roping it into submission before you try to lead it, if you fear for your life. You have the right to go home in one piece.
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verticallaw
Apr 21, 2004, 5:07 PM
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get your hands on a set of old loweballs, I use mine in pokets frequently (I just try to forget how old the da*m things are when I climb past them.
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daisuke
Apr 21, 2004, 5:31 PM
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putting pro into conglomerate holes like that is asking for touble, most conglomerate rock isn't very strong, and fitting pro in them is next to impossible, tricams and cams are guaranteed to explode the hole when you take a big whipper, and I challenge anyone to find enough good holes to put passive pro into. I have climbed on that kind of rock for about for nearly 3 years and there is little if any way of protecting it. bolting on lead can also be a very bad idea since it can break so easily, but that's still doable. Don't try and pro it, just bolt it.
that said I heard of some spanish dude who as climbing conglomerate face on trad, but I doubt he ever fell on stuff.
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clandestino
Apr 21, 2004, 5:42 PM
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In reply to: tradklime wrote: Sounds like you are looking for something that doesn't exist, some sort of super suction cup thingy.
EXACTLY! ...this is a big world ... so yes ... i am looking for something that doesn't exist in my world ...And on the general level
i am strongly aticipating SOMETHING NEW ... FOR WALL PROTECTION ...SO WE CAN MOVE PAST THE BOLTS(my wrist hurts
too much when hand drilling, i hate the vibe/noice of the machine,so
many rusty bolts ...)
dirtineye wrote:
In reply to: First, waht is hte grade of the first thirty feet? Second, what about splitter two cams? Third, whoever suggested ballnuts in a pocket, that's a really bad idea. Ball nuts do not go in round pockets. SHAME. Fourth, what about just training for the route? if it has pockets as big as you say for thirty feet to a crack, that should be doable Fifth, have you thought of trying tensioned opposition? There si no way I would drill it. That's just me personally. A piton, that's another story. again just personal opinion. I like the crash pad idea.
1:11+
2:HOW DO YOU DO SPLITTER CAMS?
3: ....
4:there are 4 holes ...spread apart (i never train, just climb on and on)
5:no
6:me too
7: I just might go for it, perhaps this sunday :D
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tradklime
Apr 21, 2004, 6:35 PM
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In reply to: There si no way I would drill it. That's just me personally. A piton, that's another story. again just personal opinion.
Why? Because you like leaving dubious fixed protection? Because you hope someday the slot will be hammered into a finger lock?
Pitons have there place (read alpine, mixed climbing, and aid), cragging ain't one of them. And 99% of the time, not as an option for fixed pro either.
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tradklime
Apr 21, 2004, 6:38 PM
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In reply to: I just might go for it, perhaps this sunday :D
That's the spirit! I hope you have insurance...
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dirtineye
Apr 21, 2004, 6:43 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: There si no way I would drill it. That's just me personally. A piton, that's another story. again just personal opinion. Why? Because you like leaving dubious fixed protection? Because you hope someday the slot will be hammered into a finger lock? Pitons have there place (read alpine, mixed climbing, and aid), cragging ain't one of them. And 99% of the time, not as an option for fixed pro either.
That's your opinion. I have another opinion now. YOU ARE A MORON. THere are fixed pins on crags all over the south numbskkull. Some areas do not allow drilling or bolts.
FYI some rock is hard enough to make a stainless or ti piton as good as any other semi permanent pro.
Keep your fecking close minded dim witted BS where it belongs, right beside your head.
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trad_mike
Apr 21, 2004, 6:43 PM
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The rock quality sounds a little suspect to me. Can't tell though, I haven't seen it. I have climbed on similar rock. Is it petrified mud with rocks thrown in here or there that pop out once in a while? Would pro in the finger crack hold a lead fall? Top rope it first if possible. If it's crap rock, maybe you should climb somewhere else. Otherwise you're choices may be to run it out to the finger crack or put a bolt in.
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