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mark99
Apr 21, 2004, 5:56 AM
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Well here goes adding fuel to the fire and my opinion.
You are probably right, with enough force a gri gri will probably cut the rope. Also so will a acsender and so will most types of devices that grab / trap or hold the rope in some form or another.
I always love how a thread starts out with a simple question and then people go off on a tangent.
The person ask which people would prefer as a top rope self belay device. They are both stated by Petzel to do this job, as well as the main function they are designed to do. Talk to petzel, like I have and you will soon understand that they only inform the person of what the product they are selling can do..
Do you really think they will sell something stating it can do something and it cannot? no. This is just plan simple.
You will also notice that they state how to create the setup and state it has to be this way. So any modifications and then you are not using it for what they stated.
So if you do have a differant way and it works fine, then that is up to you. Let other people know, but also let them know it is your opinion.
This is the great thing I like about climbing, there are so many differant opionions and ways of doing something. At the end of the day it is up to you personally to decide whether you want to do, try or use that method.
Both people arguing here have there own merits, one is a theory man and the other pratical man. What I would of like to have seen is, instead of arguing, is addressing the person questions using your own OPINIONS and maybe combining you efforts to give him enough information to make his own judgement.
Right after all that, I will give you my opinion about it. I personally do not like teeth devices on my climbing rope. This is just a personal opinion, fine on an old rope or static rope but not on my nice climbing rope. I have talked to several people that use these devices for solo and they both work well, though having the mini traxion is good to have handy for hauling.
Personally I use the shunt, as it move with me and no teeth. Then you must understand that I only top rope solo routes that are beneath my grade and normally done several times, more as a way of keeping fit when no one is around.
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beesty511
Apr 21, 2004, 6:52 AM
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In reply to: The person ask which people would prefer as a top rope self belay device. They are both stated by Petzel to do this job, as well as the main function they are designed to do. Talk to petzel, like I have and you will soon understand that they only inform the person of what the product they are selling can do.. Do you really think they will sell something stating it can do something and it cannot? no. This is just plan simple.
You say that Petzl won't sell a product that won't do what they advertise. The question is: what does Petzl say the mini traxion will do? I've seen people post on this site that the mini traxion can hold falls up to 20kn. However, Petzl doesn't say that. In their front page description, Petzl says:
"Breaking load in use as self-jamming pulley: 4 kN."
Furthermore, I've looked at the mini traxion technical specifications that Petzl links and which comes in the box when you buy one, and nowhere that I can find does it say it can be used for self belay on fifth class climbs. On the contrary, the instructions show a picture of it being used for self belay on what looks like 3rd class terrain. Conspicuous by it's absence is a diagram of it being used for top rope self belay. Nonetheless, I don't really put much faith in the pictures, so I looked at what Petzl listed as the impact rating for self belaying. However, I found the figures confusing. They divide their figures into 3 catagories for dynamic ropes: factor 1 falls, factor .5 falls, and something called "static request". Then they list the diameter of the rope and a kN figure next to it:
factor 1
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10.5: .... 5 kN (risk limited to damage of rope sheath)
factor .5
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10.5:.......3.7 kN (no rupture of sheat)
static request:
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10.5:.......6.1 kN (risk limited to damage of rope sheath)
Are they listing the status of the rope after each type of fall? What is a static request fall? What does the kN figure tell you? Is it the force they measured on the rope? Finally, how do those kN figures jive with the 4kN Petzl states on the main page?
The only thing I can conclude is that Petzl does a horrible job explaining what their technical specifications mean.
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johnhenry
Apr 21, 2004, 7:46 AM
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In lew of engaging in the technical speculations, you could just open Petzl's new catologue where they have a nice diagram of the Mini-traxion being used on a fifth-class top-rope. I think manufacturers are excedingly cautious when it comes to this sort of thing. I am not worried about it on a dynamic rope. If I was, I would clip it with a shorty screamer and two locking biners.
I forgo backup knots and use a second device on a second rope as necessary.
Be safe, have fun,
john
P.s. There is also a good diagram of it used for jugging.
The Mini-traxion is the Cat's meow!
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johnhenry
Apr 21, 2004, 7:58 AM
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In lew of engaging in the technical speculations, you could just open Petzl's new catologue where they have a nice diagram of the Mini-traxion being used on a fifth-class top-rope...
Rock On,
john
P.s. There is also a good diagram of it used for jugging.
The Mini-traxion is the Cat's meow!
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wonderbread
Apr 21, 2004, 2:39 PM
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jim davis wrote...You wanna explain how you can put backup knots in on a Top Rope, soloing...and not have it be below the Ascender? Where are your backup knots when your jugging? It's the same principle, unless we're talking about completly different systems.
Obviously you tie the middle of the rope to the anchor point, as long as both ends reach the ground you now have one rope to climb on with a mini-t second to tie bakcup knots in. If one doubled rope won't reach the ground you then need a second rope to do this.
jimdavis wrote...So you think it's ok to trust your life to a system that's rated to 4kn's? I think Petzl is refering to moving along a fixed line in a mountaineering sense, not as in soloing rock climbing where the energy created in a fall will be much greater.
Like I have been saying all along-In lew of engaging in the technical speculations, you could just open Petzl's new catologue where they have a nice diagram of the Mini-traxion being used on a fifth-class top-rope...
jimdavis wrote...No, I'm concervative. I've taken Big Wall, and Self Rescue classes with Mark Synnott. I've taken Top Roping Classes, Aid seminars, Jugging lessons, taught TR Anchors courses, Intermediate Climbing courses, ect, all so I know that I can get myself out of pretty much any situation that I'll encounter climbing. I just started leading cause up until recently I haven't had the money for my own gear. So many you can place your gear a little quicker than I can, but I know my systems.
That's all great, but you have no experience. Something that is absolutley mandatory. You are a theorist, someone who can regugitate facts all day, but when it comes down to it doesn't know sh1t. I've been climbing walls for years, climbing hard trad routes since your first classes, and setting anchors since before you even thought of climbing. Have you ever even tr soloed? If not why are you so adament about something you don't know anything about?
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tedc
Apr 21, 2004, 4:05 PM
Post #31 of 74
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In reply to: I've seen people post on this site that the mini traxion can hold falls up to 20kn...
Really? Who? I'd like to see that post.
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tedc
Apr 21, 2004, 4:20 PM
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In reply to: The Pro-Traxion is a Wall Hauler.
In reply to: So you think it's ok to trust your life to a system that's rated to 4kn's?
If you can't figure out how to TR solo without developing 4KN then you have a lot more pressing problems than "which device is best".
Like, "Do I really understand this stuff well enough to be climbing at all?"
Theory is what some has told you.
Experience is what you know.
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jimdavis
Apr 21, 2004, 6:34 PM
Post #33 of 74
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In reply to: That's all great, but you have no experience. Something that is absolutley mandatory. You are a theorist, someone who can regugitate facts all day, but when it comes down to it doesn't know sh1t. I've been climbing walls for years, climbing hard trad routes since your first classes, and setting anchors since before you even thought of climbing. Have you ever even tr soloed? If not why are you so adament about something you don't know anything about?
I don't doubt that you have more experience than I, but it doesn't mean you know everything better than someone who hasn't had as much experience.
I have TR soloed, but in a different manner than you describe. I've always had the line tied off to a ground anchor, and then passing through a master point up top. I self-belayed with a Gri-Gri, and backed up below the device. With more rope out it'll give a softer catch, but I certainly see the merits of the system your talking about. Thanks for describing that to me.
In reply to: You are a theorist, someone who can regugitate facts all day, but when it comes down to it doesn't know sh1t.
No, I know what I know, and I know how to do it. Just because you've done it longer, doesn't mean you do it better. But I'm tired of bickering, and I need to go to work. I'll post what Petzl tells me when they get back to me.
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beesty511
Apr 21, 2004, 7:53 PM
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In reply to: I'll post what Petzl tells me when they get back to me.
Thanks. I look forward to reading Petzl's explanations. Don't let the negative people get you down.
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wonderbread
Apr 21, 2004, 8:29 PM
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And here is what I know. In the first paragraph of petzl's mini traxion page they state it is among other things a tr self belay device. I will never generate enough force to break the thing while tr soloing, and like tedc said, if you can manage to do this you are doing something terribly wrong. Next, my system always has a sufficient backup. And finally the numerous routes I have used this device for it has worked perfectly. I would recommend this device for tr soloing.
So what was the question you sent to petzl anyway?
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rockitjeff
Apr 21, 2004, 9:07 PM
Post #36 of 74
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Yikes. Who IS running the asylum? First jimdavis wrote
”I'm on a rescue team dude.”
Then Wonderbread digs up this gem that jimdavis wrote
"I'm just learning Trad now, lead my first pitch yesterday....longest 5.5 i've ever done. Took my 30 mins to climb 90 feet of switchbacking slab"
Ha.
I’m on a rescue team, dude.
That’s classic.
Oh- by the way- the Soloist was designed for top roping. Like a million threads have argued B4, it’s worth a look, too.
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jimdavis
Apr 21, 2004, 9:27 PM
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You guy's need to get over this leading trad deal. I've spent so much time rigging systems that I really don't care what you guys say, I know my skills...leading trad isn't really high on that list now.
But here's my email content:
In reply to: Messsage : I was wondering about use of the Mini-Traxion and Pro-Traxion as use in Top Rop Solo setup for rock climbing. Are they ok to use considering their breaking load is rated at 4kn? Is this what you mean by they are recommened for "Self-Belay"? Also i was wondering if there are any reported instances of Gri-Gri's cutting the rope when too much force is applied, eg. a Rescue Load? Is this why they are not rated for rescue use? Thanks. James, Sometimes a "picture" is worth a thousand words! I'll let you answer these questions yourself. Follow the guidelines set forth in our Tech Notices for each of the products that you have questions about and you can't go wrong. I cannot advise you to use them in any other fashion. Kn ratings are included as well as some excellent tips on function and safety. Enjoy! And, let me know if you have any problems opening these files. You can find this info as well on our web page www.petzl.com. Cheers! Chuck Odette Petzl America Customer Sales & Support Toll Free Direct: 1-800-686-6207 Fax: 1-801-926-1501 codette@petzl.com
He attached the little hang-tag stuff for the Traxions and the Gri-Gri, which you can find on their site. So yet another company pussy-foots around a direct question.
But yea, i guess if you backed up on another independat line of rope, using a Traxion for self belay would be ok, i'd think it might trash your rope, but whatever.
Cheers,
Jim
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ricardol
Apr 21, 2004, 9:42 PM
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well i for one -- plan on continuing to use a grigri for aid self-belay .. (on lead)
-- ricardo
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jimdavis
Apr 21, 2004, 11:08 PM
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In reply to: Oh- by the way- the Soloist was designed for top roping. Like a million threads have argued B4, it’s worth a look, too.
Doesn't that have a toothless cam design? It's also rated to 6000lbs, not 880lbs.
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grundlebug
Apr 21, 2004, 11:11 PM
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Clove hitch and a clutch. No camming, no teeth.
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urbansherpa
Apr 22, 2004, 12:28 AM
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I now use a Petzl SHUNT. It is recommended for top-rope solo belay (according to my hang-tag instructions, and Petzl's PDF).
It has no 'teeth' on it, but has a smooth cam. It is therefore DESIGNED to slip at a certain force (don't remember... 4, or 7 kn?) to lessen shockload.
Although I've tried ....I can't get it to slip too much at all. (I tend to test all my new toys under control to see if I can get them to fail)
It is self-feeding when you put a 3-5lb weight on the bottom of the rope. I use a 2nd, looped line for backup.
The shunt can also be used for a rappel back-up, and takes 2 ropes. I suppose you could use it for a regular top-rope belay back-up.
You can also read about the SHUNT, and others at http://www.planetfear.com/climbing/highmountainmag/equipmentnotes/march2003/mar03.html (scroll way down) ... a British magazine
Anyway, so far I like it. If you are just doing uncomplicated (non-overhanging) TRSB then this would merit your consideration.
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roseysnowcone
Apr 22, 2004, 2:16 AM
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Jim Davis' profile:
8 routes climbed
20 gear reviews
Just like every SAR tool I've ever met.
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rockitjeff
Apr 22, 2004, 3:17 AM
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"i said DUDE~~~ don't mess with me. I'm on Search and Rescue"
YA HA ha HA hahahahahahahahahahahahah ha ha ha hhhaaaaaaa ha aha hahahah yardee hardee ha ha ha
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jimdavis
Apr 22, 2004, 4:24 AM
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In reply to: Jim Davis' profile: 8 routes climbed 20 gear reviews Just like every SAR tool I've ever met.
Sorry, most of the route's I've done are at Eagle's Bluff, Parks Pond, (both in Clifton, Maine) The Precipice in Acadia, Maine and Birdsboro PA.
Why don't you look them up, and see how many route there are added at each of those places on this site. Then find out how many routes there really are at each of those places. There are over 20 in Birdsboro, and 80+ between Eagles and Parks. Well over 30 at the Precipice too.
But you probably know that, cause you obvisiouly know everything about me simply by looking at my online profile.
But yea, what the hell was I thinking sharing my opinions of the gear that I've used with people who are looking for others' opinions. That's almost being....constructive.
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flamer
Apr 22, 2004, 5:30 AM
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In reply to: You guy's need to get over this leading trad deal. I've spent so much time rigging systems that I really don't care what you guys say, I know my skills...leading trad isn't really high on that list now.
HaHa!!!
This guy is to easy to bait....maybe we should all just leave our spinny little jig's in our tackle box's and find someone harder to troll???
Captain rescue to the ...well, um....RESCUE!!!
josh
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jimdavis
Apr 22, 2004, 6:21 AM
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well, atleast you picked a fitting user name.
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rockitjeff
Apr 22, 2004, 12:42 PM
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Un Jim?, ….it’s just the…
DUDE don’t question me- I’m on Search and Rescue
And oh yea. Just did my first trad lead ever… . 5.2 took like 4 hours
Now we all gotta do our first trad lead.. . . but people here with cred.. . who can spew with authority have done like..
5000 trad leads. Or so… .
versus one …or so..
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jimdavis
Apr 22, 2004, 1:10 PM
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I'm not telling people not to question me, I've just been exposed to some information that some people haven't. That's all.
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flamer
Apr 22, 2004, 9:10 PM
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In reply to: well, atleast you picked a fitting user name.
HaHa!!! that's funny cause you don't have the slightest clue about my user name!!!
But I'll tell you this- I've rescued WAY more people than you ever will.
josh
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rockitjeff
Apr 22, 2004, 10:56 PM
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flamer, better not mess with him..
he's on RESCUE TEAM, DUDE
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