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vertical_reality
Apr 21, 2004, 5:28 PM
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I have no big wall experience and this picture got me wondering.
Have a look at this pic...
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=ListPhoto&PhotoID=29325
Are there usually this many bolts at a belay station? If so, why?
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slablizard
Apr 21, 2004, 5:32 PM
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Why? Look at the amount of gear those guys have to deal with! :-)
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asandh
Apr 21, 2004, 5:49 PM
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:)
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vertical_reality
Apr 21, 2004, 6:17 PM
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In reply to: Not uncommon, but 2 sets of 2 bolts a few feet apart is usually sufficient. This is at a belay usually used for a bivy.
Do you mean that at a normal belay station there are 2 sets of 2 bolts and at bivy belay there are more?
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smithclimber
Apr 21, 2004, 6:18 PM
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I believe this particular belay had 5 bolts. Part of that reason was because not all of them were ideal. In other words, in the past there was probably just 3 bolts (with 2 of them not being so great) so eventually someone added 2 more good bolts to make the belay very safe. On non-big wall routes people will remove the "less than ideal" bolt(s) when putting the replacements in. However, on big walls it is common to just add the new ones and leave the old ones too (for the "spreading" reason listed below).
On big walls, the belays can vary greatly. Although you might encounter an all gear belay anchor or maybe one bolt + gear, you will routinely find a 3 bolt anchor. Sometimes there is just 2 bolts (just like a sport climb might have) and sometimes you get a really nice belay that has 4 or even 5 bolts spread out horizontally.
When you have 4 or 5 bolts, spread horizontally, it really gives you space by allowing the two (or more) climbers to "spread out". :D
It's nice to have some room for the portaledges, haulbags, etc.
Even when there are only 3 bolts, it's best for them to be spread well apart (unlike 3 bolt anchors on sport routes) to allow the team to "spread out".
Naturally, you can make it all work on an anchor that only consists of 2 bolts, but it's not much fun and has to be planned out very well.
Keep in mind that you typically find belays with more bolts at intervals where most parties set up their bivy for the night (i.e. the end of Pitch 4, 8, 12, etc.). You aren't going to find a 5 bolt anchor at the top of Pitch 1! :lol:
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vertical_reality
Apr 21, 2004, 6:30 PM
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Cool, thanks guys.
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boltdude
Apr 21, 2004, 6:37 PM
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When Chris McNamara, Erik Sloan, and Jason Smith (Singer) replaced bolts in '97 on Zodiac, there were literally 15 bolts (not 14, 15!) - all 1/4" - at the Mark of Zorro belay.
Even on free climbs, it's not uncommon to run into belay stations with three or four 1/4" bolts, and I've seen at least a couple stations that had five 1/4" bolts. All attached with a big mess of webbing of course...
So that picture looks like a lot of bolts, but imagine 2 or 3 old rusty 1/4" bolts for EACH of those bolts you see in the picture!
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maculated
Apr 21, 2004, 7:53 PM
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THAT is a sexy image.
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asandh
Apr 21, 2004, 7:54 PM
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:)
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bigwalling
Apr 21, 2004, 9:53 PM
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In reply to: yes ASCA does good work. I would say that 3 "good" bolts is adequate for a NON bivy belay. The 3rd bolt is to haul off of. Bivy belay, 4 or 5 "good" bolts depending on the rock configuration.
What, you don't need a million bolts for a belay. There is such a thing as natural anchors or bolts supplemented with gear!
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sarcat
Apr 21, 2004, 10:21 PM
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So when ever someone dosn't like the # of bolts they pull out their pika or pecker and place a new one? Who decides how many is enough?
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caughtinside
Apr 21, 2004, 10:23 PM
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Oftentimes, the RBA (registered bolting authority) will make a determination if more belay bolts are necessary and issue a permit for belay bolts. To my knowledge though, they have never authorized a single chicken bolt.
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asandh
Apr 21, 2004, 11:55 PM
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:)
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copperhead
Apr 22, 2004, 6:27 AM
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In reply to: Are there usually this many bolts at a belay station?
On FAs and routes that have not been done too many times, no. But in the case of trade routes, there are unfortunately an exorbitant amount of bolts. 5 bolts at a belay is ridiculous, no matter what route we are talking about.
Because chicken sh1ts and those in favor of convenience decide that they need to add a bolt to the belay, even if they have no clue about appropriate bolting hardware and respect for the route. The bolt that Lambone is hanging from appears to be a Euro? hammer-in funkmo-jivermaroler bolt… typical.
In reply to: Part of that reason was because not all of them were ideal. In other words, in the past there was probably just 3 bolts (with 2 of them not being so great) so eventually someone added 2 more good bolts to make the belay very safe.
And there lies the very heart of the problem.
In reply to: On non-big wall routes people will remove the "less than ideal" bolt(s) when putting the replacements in. However, on big walls it is common to just add the new ones and leave the old ones too (for the "spreading" reason listed below).
Add bolts? Common? Maybe, but is it right? Ruckerfrigate, no! I have learned from a few mistakes of my own; we all learn. But, I have also witnessed the results of some very misguided and poor re-bolting judgement… Like new 3/8” bolts placed inches from the original bolts and the old bolts still remain… or drilling an entire new ladder of 3/8” bolts a few feet to the left of the original line, with longer bolt spacing, on one of the most historically sporty rivet ladders on the Captain. Yup, the Trip, the route listed and pictured above. So much for Porter’s vision and style on that one… Not that it was an intended style to begin with but it is what it is (or was…). Now, it is an entirely different route, and nothing like the original. The route was re-bolted with the intent to create a safer route using bolting hardware that will last for decades. Sounds good, except that the style and character of the original route was totally disregarded and the most important rule of re-bolting completely forgotten… Re-use the original hole when possible!!! What about even cleaning the old bolts???!!! A year later…
What happened to the first four rivets of Zenyatta? Don’t like an uncomfortable bivy? Know how to move boulders? Like to trundle?
Oh, and the Aquarian… now there’s a prime example. Who wants to stand on aluminum dowels when you can replace every single one of them with a 3/8” belay bolt? Well, Bridwell didn’t seem to agree… but who the F is Bridwell and why should anyone give a schist about anything that the FAist says, especially when they have been one of the most prominent Yosemite big wall FAists in history… Ah, screw ‘em… who cares.
But you know what?… All of the climbing is relatively easy by modern standards and it would be a good moderate wall route so all of the bolts should be really safe so all the more climbers will be able to enjoy the route…so…so… Yeah, right!!!!!
And the multitude of other ‘trade’ routes that now SPORT 3/8” bolts in the middle of a crux where a mere body-weight rivet once existed… unacceptable.
Did someone say Zodiac?
In reply to: When you have 4 or 5 bolts, spread horizontally, it really gives you space by allowing the two (or more) climbers to "spread out".
PTPP heaven and route debauchery. Should the belay accommodate the climber or should the climber accommodate the belay?
Nothing personal towards you, Wes – just using an easy example to explain my (as well as many others’) feelings on the subject.
In reply to: What, you don't need a million bolts for a belay. There is such a thing as natural anchors or bolts supplemented with gear!
Yes. So Jake may not have climbed El Cap YET, but at least when he does, we don’t have to worry about him wussy-drilling on a proud route. (It’s good to see guys like Bigwalling and Diesel with a little attitude and a good sense of respect for old school ethics. Spread the knowledge.)
Looks like a nice crack running through the middle of the belay that could probably accept at least a half-dozen pieces… but that wouldn’t be very convenient… especially for a party of three. And who gives a schist about what the FAist did…
(You guys (SmithC,...) might have a piece in the crack; I can’t tell. It’s the ones that placed the bolts, not you! No dis…)
In reply to: So when ever someone dosn't like the # of bolts they pull out their pika or pecker and place a new one? Who decides how many is enough?
Or they pull out their wrench and/or hammer, etc. and remove one (or more…). The FA team decides how many is enough and those who choose to follow should respect that number of bolts. When replacement is necessary, original bolts should be pulled and the same (original) hole should be re-used. When this is impossible (bolt breaks off), the original hole should be patched and a new hole drilled next to the old one. Etc., details involved.
In reply to: Oftentimes, the RBA (registered bolting authority) will make a determination if more belay bolts are necessary and issue a permit for belay bolts. To my knowledge though, they have never authorized a single chicken bolt.
Uh, that would be the RBCA – Retro Bolt Choppers of America. Bolt addition permits are not issued on this planet by this organization; removal of added (retro) “chicken” bolts is supported. Sometimes, if community consensus decides that “chicken” or added bolts are better left alone, then this decision is accepted and the bolts are left or replaced. Cookie Monster (Cookie Cliff - the cover of your guidebook) would be a good example of an exception to the rule though there are individuals that still believe that the bolts should go.
In reply to: Sometimes those 2 birdbeaks I normally use to set up a wall anchor are just not strong enough to hold me and the haul bag.
But they (equalized) will probably hold the haulbag or gear bag if you bounce-test each of them first.
What if a belay consists of two good 3/8” bolts but the bolts are separated by fixed heads and a hook placement (that can all be equalized) and it is necessary to weight the heads to cross from one bolt to the other? Call BS on the FA and drill another bolt in the middle of the belay? Or spend the time/effort/skill to deal?
So, is any creativity used to design belays on the FA destined to sooner or later become lost to modern ‘lack’ of ethics and respect? Huh? Homogenized, sterilized, killed at its core? Should the boldness of the FA soloist’s belay become reduced to accept the norm?
Look for the final version (details) of the Re-bolting Ethics and Guidelines piece that I have been working on, somewhere, sometime in the (hopefully near) future…
Respect the original route.
Don’t add.
Replace with appropriate hardware.
Speak the Word.
Have fun!!!
-American Chopper
......vroom, vroom!!
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epic_ed
Apr 22, 2004, 6:56 AM
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Nice insight, Byran. Thanks for posting your perspective.
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justsendingits
Apr 22, 2004, 7:08 AM
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Point taken, advantage Brian!!!
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ricardol
Apr 22, 2004, 7:19 AM
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so bryan .. why dont you tell us how you really feel about this..
-- ricardo
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timpanogos
Apr 22, 2004, 7:28 AM
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"Slater was shocked when he tested the first rivet and it pulled out of the rock. Rob held onto the pulled rivet to place next to rivets up higher andto see just how far they were drilled into the rock. Some machine heads were only in three threads!"
So if any manky/missing rivets are replaced on WSR - only 3 threads deep - right?
Chad
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justsendingits
Apr 22, 2004, 7:46 AM
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[quote="copperhead"
. 5 bolts at a belay is ridiculous, no matter what route we are talking about.
Agreed!!
]
Copperhead----Add bolts? Common? Maybe, but is it right? Ruckerfrigate, no! I have learned from a few mistakes of my own; we all learn. But, I have also witnessed the results of some very misguided and poor re-bolting judgement… Like new 3/8” bolts placed inches from the original bolts and the old bolts still remain… or drilling an entire new ladder of 3/8” bolts a few feet to the left of the original line, with longer bolt spacing, on one of the most historically sporty rivet ladders on the Captain. Yup, the Trip, the route listed and pictured above. So much for Porter’s vision and style on that one… Not that it was an intended style to begin with but it is what it is (or was…). Now, it is an entirely different route, and nothing like the original. The route was re-bolted with the intent to create a safer route using bolting hardware that will last for decades. Sounds good, except that the style and character of the original route was totally disregarded and the most important rule of re-bolting completely forgotten… Re-use the original hole when possible!!! What about even cleaning the old bolts???!!! A year later…
Brian, I try to learn from my mistakes also, maybe if I get on T-trip again I will chop some of those belay's with too many bolts. I think I saw 7 bolts at a belay on Zodiac!! A bit much!!!
Copperhead----Should the belay accommodate the climber or should the climber accommodate the belay?
The latter.
Copperhead----Looks like a nice crack running through the middle of the belay that could probably accept at least a half-dozen pieces… but that wouldn’t be very convenient… especially for a party of three. And who gives a schist about what the FAist did…
Word!
Respect the original route.
Don’t add.
Replace with appropriate hardware.
Speak the Word.
Have fun!!!
Double word!!!!!
-American Chopper
......vroom, vroom!!
Get rid of your wussy 2 stroke and get the BMW GS1150 !!!!!!!
.
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timpanogos
Apr 22, 2004, 10:38 AM
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horse power to weight ratio - that wossie 2 stock likely kicks but on the monster bike
roughly 93 horsepower for 225 pounds.
waaa hooo
Only reason you would beat it (to 70) on the steet is you have to back of the gas to keep it from coming over on ya (handle bars at waist)
nothing like a dirt road and that back end cocked sideways trying to come around the front wheel - love that feeling!
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justsendingits
Apr 22, 2004, 12:18 PM
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Thread hijack in progress!!
I love 2 strokes Tim, I was just giving Chopperhead some sh(te..
The first time I rode a Suzuki RM 125 back in 1978, ranks up there with the first time I got a bonner!!!
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sarcat
Apr 22, 2004, 2:19 PM
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Respect the route..... What about progress? Isn't progress good for everyone?
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ricardol
Apr 22, 2004, 3:08 PM
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In reply to: Brian, I try to learn from my mistakes also, maybe if I get on T-trip again I will chop some of those belay's with too many bolts. I think I saw 7 bolts at a belay on Zodiac!! A bit much!!! .
... talk about creative reporting ..
none of the belays on zodiac had more than 5 bolts ...
most had 3 ..
-- ricardo
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papounet
Apr 22, 2004, 3:50 PM
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In reply to: The first time I rode a Suzuki RM 125 back in 1978, ranks up there with the first time I got a bonner!!!
did it hapen at the same time because you were lying on top of the reservoir in order to reduce the drag ?
or was it because you seduced a drag ?
:P :P :P
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asandh
Apr 22, 2004, 3:55 PM
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:)
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