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shaggyj
Mar 24, 2004, 2:50 AM
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What are your thoughts on the voluntary June Closure of Devil's Tower? The Supreme Court refused to hear the case of having an out right ban on climbing during the month of June, on the grounds of violating climbers rights in order to protect the native american's.
Is it bad form (or at least extreemly disrespectful) to climb the tower in the month of June?
Pro Climbing the Tower:
www.devils-tower.com/freedom/
Neutral Stance:
http://www.accessfund.org/whoweare/who_about_pos_dtower.html
Against climbing the tower:
http://www.sacredland.org/devils_tower.html
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cliffmonkey2003
Mar 24, 2004, 2:54 AM
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I say bad form. The natives asking for one month out of twelve is not asking too much in my opinion.
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drkodos
Mar 24, 2004, 3:00 AM
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Very bad form.
Honor the closure.
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donie
Mar 24, 2004, 3:12 AM
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definitely, we've taken too much. let them have their month. probably too feckin hot anyway............................
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angry
Mar 24, 2004, 3:46 AM
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Ultra bad form. Something to think about though, indians have long claimed that their braves snagged FA's of the tower back in the early years. Durrance, solo in mocasins would probably be pretty easy still, I wonder how it would be for a brave with no prior climbing practice however. I digress.
April-June tend to be so tick infested that I avoid the place the plague (er Lyme Disease) god I hate ticks. June in that area of WY is hot and muggy, not really that good for climbing. My preferences are the shaded side in august and the sunny side in early october.
The issue though boils down to respect, I love the tower and I respect (although I realize the holy site arguement is a modern contrivance) the closure. Those who I know that have climbed there in June tend to lack respect, not just for the Tower, or Indians, but in general - these folks are not the respectful sort.
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chronicle
Mar 24, 2004, 3:49 AM
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I agree with everyone else.
I'm planning my first trip out there, and I've been told that June sucks for climbing anyway. So, I'm going for 3 days in September.
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mesomorf
Mar 24, 2004, 4:24 AM
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In reply to: Pro Climbing the Tower: www.devils-tower.com/freedom/
Strange...
If you want to read the real rant, do View - Source on the page that shaggyj mentions...
I wonder why it was seen fit to hide the argument in this manner?
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g
Deleted
Mar 24, 2004, 4:48 AM
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I don't think it is great hardship to climb the limestone in Spearfish Canyon, or the granite of Rushmore and the Needles for one month. Also, to my knowledge the Devils Tower NM never tried to have a mandatory closure, but it was discussed as a possible step. There aren't too many people who have read the whole Devils Tower NM Climbing Management Plan, but feel free to track it down on the web to see what it said (me, I've got other things to do).
I know people who climb on the Tower in June, and it is their right, but I'll be elsewhere. On average over the years it has been about 90 percent effective, with the majority of the climbs being guided climbs (such as the www.devils-tower.com owner).
One last thing; I see this all the time, but there is no ' in Devils Tower National Monument. It was left out of the name when it was created about one-hundred years ago by TR. The standard story I've heard is that it was to cut down on printing costs. Similarly, the geographic place name has no apostrophe.
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granitegod
Apr 22, 2004, 6:28 AM
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I am totally in OPPOSITION to the "voluntary" ban on climbing in June. One month out of twelve? Yeah, Devil's tower sees lots of ascents from November through April. NOT!
Sorry, just don't see how my clean climbing affects anyone's rights. For many climbers, climbing is a spiritual experience. Why should the Native Americans (....hey, I was born in Ohio...aren't I a Native American?) religious beliefs be more important than mine? I wouldn't climb D.T. to be disrespectful to them, but merely to worship the same Earth and Great Being they do.....just in a different way. The next time I go to DT, it will be in June.....no lines!
Freedom: use it or lose it.
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fargoan
Apr 22, 2004, 6:47 AM
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In reply to: Why should the Native Americans (....hey, I was born in Ohio...aren't I a Native American?) religious beliefs be more important than mine? I wouldn't climb D.T. to be disrespectful to them, but merely to worship the same Earth and Great Being they do.....just in a different way. The next time I go to DT, it will be in June.....no lines! Freedom: use it or lose it.
You're kidding, right?
How about the fact that we murdered them, stole their land, and forced them into fragments of their previous lives (STEALING THEIR RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS)?
Get off your fecking horse and get some respect. Imagine if the Indians pissed on your cross.
Jonathan
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dangle
Apr 22, 2004, 7:47 AM
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They can piss on a cross all they like.
Vermin says sport climbing is neither; well, organized religion..... isn't.
What about the guide that only has a few months to earn his bread?
I suspect there may be some anti-anglo racism involved. Yeah we murdered them, they murdered us, but none of us climbers had anything to do with it.. Whats next?
I'm all for protecting the rights of minorities (I am one), but this crosses the line and if made mandatory becomes tyranny of the minority . We're all lucky just to be around. We should learn to share.
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fargoan
Apr 22, 2004, 8:45 AM
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In reply to: T What about the guide that only has a few months to earn his bread? I suspect there may be some anti-anglo racism involved. Yeah we murdered them, they murdered us, but none of us climbers had anything to do with it.. Whats next? I'm all for protecting the rights of minorities (I am one), but this crosses the line and if made mandatory becomes tyranny of the minority . We're all lucky just to be around. We should learn to share.
the guide has a half-dozen places to guide in with a half day's drive.
and by tyranny of the minority, you are talking about one month out of twelve?
ahem, is this not sharing? ahem....
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rrrADAM
Apr 22, 2004, 11:29 AM
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I agree with it 100%...
By "voluntarily" agreeing not to climb there in June, we are showing that we are willing to compromise, and can handle issues ourselves as responsible climbers.
If we are not willing to compromise and handle these issues ourselves, then we show that we need to be governed by an outside body. We need to be sensitive to other groups want if we expect other groups to be sensitive to what we want. We share the rock with others too.
If a climber decides to climb there during the voluntary closure, then he is basically saying screw everyone else, all I care about is me, and this does not make us as climbers look good.
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tgreene
Apr 22, 2004, 12:31 PM
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So Adam, how about we climb the tower together on my birthday...... JUNE 20 (j/k)
Actually, the tower has always been my dream to climb, and it's actually the only piece of rock that I feel this way about, so someday, by the grace of God, it will happen!
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treehugger
Apr 22, 2004, 1:11 PM
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In reply to: If you want to read the real rant, do View - Source on the page that shaggyj mentions...
No kidding; I find the fact that a rabid rant is hidden on the site of an apparently well-established guide service rather troublesome. I liked this excerpt in particular:
In reply to: Climb in June as much as you can, and never support the Access Fund ~ They have tried, and are continuing to try, to close climbing areas, but couldn't at Devils Tower. The Access Fund Representatives that negotiated on behalf of the climbers during the planning stage of Climbing Management Plan agreed to close the Tower to climbing.
The Access Fund is trying to end climbing...well, duh. :roll:
The other amusing part of the rant is the (much) repeated use of the 1st amendment as the main justification for climbing wherever, whenever. I can only imagine that he is somehow referring to the freedom of association, but that doesn't apply either. It's people who make jacka** comments like these that are responsible for the excessive level of inconsiderate and shortsided behaviors that bring everyone else down along with them.
We need a little more respect, and a little more common sense. Does anyone have a good argument for ignoring the ban? What if someone were to arrive from Europe (or somewhere equally distant), unaware of the ban and not planning to return for a long time (if at all). Would it be acceptable for this person to climb? Personally, I respect the voluntary ban. Of course, if my neighbor asked me to not have loud, raucous parties on Sunday mornings because he was having prayer meetings, I'd respect that as well.
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timstich
Apr 22, 2004, 2:24 PM
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Anyone care to guess just how many climbing areas various Native American special interest groups are asking to have closed to climbing? Seems like there are quite a few of them. Of course Cave Rock is a wash, though I heard that climbers pretty much shot themselves in the foot with that one.
I just can't sign on to policies that exclude other users of open space. Sorry. Banning snowmobiles and motorcycles, sure. But keeping group X out because group Y doesn't want to see them, no. Forget it.
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corpse
Apr 22, 2004, 2:24 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Why should the Native Americans (....hey, I was born in Ohio...aren't I a Native American?) religious beliefs be more important than mine? I wouldn't climb D.T. to be disrespectful to them, but merely to worship the same Earth and Great Being they do.....just in a different way. The next time I go to DT, it will be in June.....no lines! Freedom: use it or lose it. You're kidding, right? How about the fact that we murdered them, stole their land, and forced them into fragments of their previous lives (STEALING THEIR RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS)? Get off your fecking horse and get some respect. Imagine if the Indians pissed on your cross. Jonathan
WE DIDN'T KILL THEM AND TAKE THEIR LAND!!
HE nor his parents nor his grandparents killed any Indians. Although I can sympathize with the Indians, this argument about stealing land and all that has gotten to me. WE, as in you and I and EVERY other member on rc.com, has never had any part in killing indians or any other "atrocity" in the past.. Show me 1 person in this country today that was involved in killing off the Indians and taking their land.
As for the closure on the DT, I'm definitely neutral.. I personally wouldn't climb in June there - I feel it is a *reasonable* compromise, even though I don't agree with why.. They have rights as well, just as I do. However, I think nothing ill of those that choose to climb there - no bad karma or anything.
(edited to keep message on topic)
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superdiamonddave
Apr 22, 2004, 2:29 PM
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Respect the voluntary closure or bad karma will surely follow. :twisted:
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timstich
Apr 22, 2004, 2:32 PM
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"Sins of the Fathers" arguments to justify this and that don't have a leg to stand on. Of course you could always put your money where your mouth is and pay reparations. I hear there are other groups out there looking for a payout as well.
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j_ung
Apr 22, 2004, 2:33 PM
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It doesn't seem like too much to ask. There are many altruistic reasons to respect the voluntary closure and only selfish reasons not to. And if you tell me climbing on Devil's Tower is your religion... bull shit.
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timstich
Apr 22, 2004, 2:44 PM
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In reply to: It doesn't seem like too much to ask. There are many altruistic reasons to respect the voluntary closure and only selfish reasons not to.
There are many sanctimonious reasons to respect closures as well.
In reply to: And if you tell me climbing on Devil's Tower is your religion... bull s---.
So you only respect numbers, eh? How quaint.
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campo
Apr 22, 2004, 2:53 PM
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Interesting thread here.
In six months, I will be able to offer the climbing community a 30-50 analytical paper concerning the access issues at Devil's Tower. I am a climber, and also a super senior (took a year off to climb) at Hartwick College in New York (hour and a half north of Gunks). My major is History, and I am a minor in art, anthropology, photography, and comparative ethnic studies. I am doing a case study on Devils Tower in Wyoming next fall for my thesis, so I have been following this issue extensively. If anyone here is directly (we are all directly involved, but not in the sense I am using) with the former court proceedings or the lawsuit, please contact me regarding a possible interview! Or, if you have an opinion that you can back up with fact, please contact me also. Basically, I want no ranters who spew without a backup! I will save my opinions concerning the issue until after my thesis is published, this way there is no eveidence of my being a-historical!
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angelaa
Apr 22, 2004, 3:53 PM
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In reply to: Basically, I want no ranters who spew without a backup! !
Well, if you don't want spew. . . . avoid a certian guide in the area.
I ran into him in Ouray this winter, and he is even ranting about Ouray Ice park rules. I even read something about him trying to get the park closed down just because they have rules about guides and large groups.
I think the man thinks the world was created for his use and his use alone.
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wanlessrm
Apr 22, 2004, 4:09 PM
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I went to the tower in June and left all my gear in the car. Its a nice walk around the tower and it gave me time to dream about climbing it. I than went to spearfish and had a blast. I saw people climbing it and thought that was a choice they made and who was I to wish them bad Karma.
Just thinking but what month has the most accidents? ANYONE
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slabmaster
Apr 22, 2004, 4:52 PM
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[quote="granitegod"]I am totally in OPPOSITION to the "voluntary" ban on climbing in June. One month out of twelve? Yeah, Devil's tower sees lots of ascents from November through April. NOT!
quote]
granitegod, remember Sonny Bonno? Made some dumb ass remark about the Endangered Spices Act being a waste of time. Seems a tree jumped out in front of him while he was skiing some time later. Bad karma.
Watch for falling rock this year...
~r
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