That's your opinion. I have another opinion now. YOU ARE A MORON. THere are fixed pins on crags all over the south numbskkull. Some areas do not allow drilling or bolts...

Keep your fecking close minded dim witted BS where it belongs, right beside your head.

FYI some rock is hard enough to make a stainless or ti piton as good as any other semi permanent pro.

WORST CASE. Climb, hang from hook in pocket, drill small hole, insert one of those Removable Bolts from Climb Tech, clip and repeat.

:D :wink:

Wow, very articulate response, I'm impressed. It's certainly obvious that between the two of us I'm the moron. :roll:

Fact: Pitons damage natural features in the rock whenever placed. Pitons have a long documented history of changing the nature of climbs by enhancing the size of cracks.

Fact: Pitons are less reliable than modern bolts. Pitons are more likely to appear good while actually be very bad, verses bolts. Pitons require more frenquent replacement than bolts. Read: many experts believe modern SS 1/2 bolts will last 100 years.

Fact: When removed, a bolt hole is much easier to repair than a pin scar.

And that's just some of my dim witted BS...


I'll go ahead and call BS now. This is rarely the case. It certainly may be the case for the first couple of years, but compare how the two systems work. An expansion bolts tightens as it receives an outward force. A piton is a wedge bashed into a crack, with the more falls they receive and with freeze/ thaw they inherently work their way out of the crack.

Why? Because you like leaving dubious fixed protection? Because you hope someday the slot will be hammered into a finger lock?

Pitons have there place (read alpine, mixed climbing, and aid), cragging ain't one of them. And 99% of the time, not as an option for fixed pro either.

YOU don't have a clue. Half your facts are talking about pins used as removable gear, we are not talking about that. Sounds like you have no idea how to place a pin as semi permanent gear. SOunds like you have never seen really hard sandstone, where there are numerous pins that are still solid after 10 years. Sounds like you think the whole country freezes over several times a year. And for the last time, SOME areas do not allow bolting, but they do allow pins.

Stainles bolts lasting 100 years, that's a riot. Now it is clear that you have no idea about the conditions in the south. YOU wanna read something, go read about metal salts ( ionic solutions) and electro potentials with regard to corrosion and bolts.


I'm sorry I called yo ua moron, that was wrong. You are a self roghteous ill informed pompous A$$.

Pitons do also have theire place in first ascends in my opinion.
I shurely would not go so far to call you a moron, but try to think a bit further:
As far as i understood it he wants to do it Clean and leave it lake that, so it wouldnt be a sport climbing route, so noone expects "safe" fixed protection.

And BTW expansion bolts, stainless or not, ar far from being a piece that you can trust for hundred years. If you bult ist, use Glue ins!

I mysself really like pitons
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=28579
as far as i dont take falls on them 8^)

tedc- thank you. That is exactly what I was thinking while reading this. While lead-bolting (including A0 lead) is better style than rap bolting, that does not neccesarily mean that soloing (running out-semantics) the first 30 feet is much better syle (if at all) than the lead bolting. Boldness may be a component of good style (and very often is) but the two are not synonomous.
From the sound of this line, the first 30 feet are pretty close to unprotectable, and a ground up bolt to protect it doesn't sound unreasonable. ASSUMING, OF COURSE, that the local ethic allows ANY bolts, ever.

Would someone explain the difference between lead bolting and rap bolting? Thanks

Fact: Pitons are less reliable than modern bolts. Pitons are more likely to appear good while actually be very bad, verses bolts. Pitons require more frenquent replacement than bolts. Read: many experts believe modern SS 1/2 bolts will last 100 years.

I call BS, specifically on sentence #2. You can test pitons. You cannot test bolts. Visual assessment is worthless, why are you discussing it? Score one for the pins!

coylec

You could theoretically test a mank bolt in a similar fashion as a pin. Unless you have some special technique, besides tapping it with a hammer.

Analogy follows to ASCA. I like 'em, no doubt, but trying to get solid information about bolts from them is like getting the truth from a used car salesperson.

Bolts are not regulated or certified and may break

Bolts used for outdoor rock climbing in the U.S. have historically not been regulated or certified in any way. Historical practice is to use bolts which are nowhere near any "reasonable" level of safety compared to the standards of modern society, and even the bolts used now to establish new routes and replace old bolts are not certified or regulated in any way. Limitations due to ease and speed and type mean that even many bolts used by the ASCA are nowhere near what would be considered acceptable safety margins in other walks of life such as the modern construction industry. The ASCA is a bit of a misnomer, because climbing is (obviously) not a "safe" thing to do. Old deteriorating bolts are potential death traps even for experienced climbers, and the ASCA seeks to replace them with well camouflaged stainless steel bolts which will not rust, and are easily removable/replaceable in the future. No bolt is ever guaranteed, and trusting a bolt with your life is always a gamble.

Avalanches, rock fall, incorrect installation, freeze/thaw cycles, manufacturing defects, and climbers attempting to remove the bolt with tools can all be the cause of messed up bolts. Bolts are technically speaking "abandoned property" and not regulated by any government agency or any organization.

Bolts replaced by the ASCA may break

The ASCA is an entirely volunteer effort to do maintenance and the bolts placed by the ASCA are in no way guaranteed and may fail.

If you are seeking security, DO NOT CLIMB. To quote Helen Keller, "Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all." Climbing of any type inherently involves the risk of death. Those hiding their unwillingness to take responsibility for their own actions behind the current legal system of the U.S. should never attempt to climb anything.

Please don't go around "testing" bolts by tapping on them. :evil: A light tap on a pin will not usually degrade the placement, but a tap on the end of some types of bolts can unseat the wedging action that holds it in the rock. This can ruin an otherwise well placed bolt. Not to mention that you will gain no aditional information about the quality of the placement. Try and wiggle it with your fingers. Thay is about the best "non visual" test. Even if it wiggles it doesn't necessarily suck.

Side by side, I think pins are better because you are able to test them, unless of course, you don't have a hammer. coylec

tradslime, I just wrote a post where I officially retired from flaming, and anyway, the more you say the dumber you look, so I'll just leave it at that.

Except to say that you sound a lot like a retro bolting sport weenie.

THere. I'm done. Have the last word if it makes you feel important behind what is possibly your only apparent connection to climbing-- your computer.

But your skill at unfounded assumptions and various logical fallacies as well as rhetorical trikery is admirable.

The only support you have is that pins are in common use in hard southeast sandstone (remember we were talking about conglomerate here).