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PRO for pockets/shalow holes???
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Partner coylec


Apr 23, 2004, 10:39 AM
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Re: PRO for pockets/shalow holes??? [In reply to]
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Side by side, I think pins are better because you are able to test them, unless of course, you don't have a hammer. coylec

Do you often free climb with a hammer...?

Yes, I have a hammer in my bag of stuff. It goes with my aiders, daisies, hooks, pitons and more. I don't mind hiking with a couple more pounds of weight if it means i've got the stuff I need when I need it. If I know a route has pins and I suspect they may not be the best, I'll bring a hammer to do some LIGHT tapping. Hammers also rock to unseat stuck nuts. Booty-time!

coylec


jerrygarcia


Apr 26, 2004, 11:33 AM
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Registered: Aug 27, 2002
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Re: PRO for pockets/shalow holes??? [In reply to]
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yo, jerrygarcia, where the heck did you get those chicken heads?

Bought them at Hudson Trail Outfitters, Back in 1992. HTO is a chain of stores in the washington DC metro area.


tradklime


Apr 26, 2004, 3:26 PM
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qwert,

As promised, I'm done with the piton discussion. However, i will address some of the bolt related items...

In reply to:
As far as i understood you, you are favoring SS expansion bolts.
Apart from being unreliable, they are putting a large amount of outward forces on the rock. this may work in hard stuff, but in soft conglomerate, you may totally blow the placement. If you are bolting it:
For soft stuff: Use long glue-ins!!
Glue-in's are great, for all rock, especially soft rock. However, they offer on distinct disadvantage: they too will require replacement one day and they are problematic to remove. A bolt like a Rawl 5 piece is easy to remove and the sleeve design works well in all but the softest rock, because it distributes the force to the rock (verses a wedge anchor). Further, expansion bolts have been used successfully at several conglomerate climbing areas in the US. Obviously, I cannot speak specifically to the rock quality of the area that started this mess.

Beside old 1/4 inch bolts, are you aware of any specific failures of an appropriately placed expansion bolt?

In reply to:
Expansion bolts are also a piece of protection on wich you should be really carefull:
Look at how the forces of a fall are distributed among the many companets of the bolt, and how large the contact area is where the forces get to. this is totally crazy!
Kind of silly since the bolts are specifically designed for the forces you mention.

In reply to:
Even if its not weighted, there is a constant (large) amount of many different torque forces on the bolt. Its constantly under tension wich helps the rust to do greater damage.
Again they are designed for the type of use and conditions they are subjected to.

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Stainless steel insnt really rust free, since the process of rusting is just a chemical reaction between the metal and the oxygen of the air. Varios other chemicals out of the bolt, the rock, the rain, the air ... play in this game, doing good things or bad things.
You could place two eqeal SS bolt in two different rocks, it could stay safe for 20 years int the first, and get totally screwed within 2 years in the second.
*Really* rustfree materials are stuff like gold, platin, titanium and some sort of steel (the one good taps and citchen sinks are made of) but they all arent usable for expansion bolts, since the varius amounts of tension forces on them.
All fixed pro faces these issues. Hence, my fixture on replacement. Pins scars are ugly (oops), but chopped bolts may be uglier (glue-ins face this down the road). Sleeve bolts are the the best compromise in my opinion, even though glue-ins may last even longer.

The one possible exception are titanium glues-ins, I don't know enough about them, they could last forever for all i know...

In reply to:
And last but not least: expansion bolts need to be set with a speicial amount of torque, so you should set them with a torque wrench.
This mostly isnt done, mostly bolts are overthigtened, wich is as bad as a loose bolt.
You know: loose, thigter, thigt, thigter .... loose

qwert
Have you placed a bolt? and I 'm not trying to be a smart ass. Play around with placing them and tightening them with various wrenches, including a torque wrench (of course be selective of where you do this). It is hard to over torque an expansion anchor with a standard end wrench (assuming the torque is near 30 lbs.). Also, with a bit a practice you can get a feel for it. I'd guess most bolts are probably under torqued.

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ps. what did you mean with BIG PICTURE?
We all need to look beyond the ego of the first assent. We are doing something potentially permanent to the rock. Also, our efforts will effect other's experience in the future. Establishing new routes is alot of work and alot of responsibility. We need to think long term. People may be climbing "your" route long after you are dead.


qwert


Apr 27, 2004, 12:55 AM
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Thanks for your response.
i think i got your point.
glue ins are really hard to remove or are looking ugly when removed, but normally (apart from a seacliff enviroment or a rock who is "leaking" some sort of acid water) you dont need to remove them (another exception: if sume **** let theirselfs getting lowered directly from them).

I will keep my point of view: expansion type bolts have many drawbacks, wich you can only avoid be replacing them at a constant rate.
Shure, the are made for teh *crazy mess* of forces, but their origin is in construction working and not climbing. Most are only some kind of *one time* piece, and my expieriences are going in this direction.

As sayd im no expert, but this is my point of view.
Maybe i dont see the good points of them since im from a area where you will find 70%glue ins, 20% no gear/ rusty pitons 5% homemade stuff and 5% expansion bolts.

qwert


madmax


May 4, 2004, 10:27 AM
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Re: PRO for pockets/shalow holes??? [In reply to]
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Didn't feel like reading through everyone's rantings about what to do, so maybe someone already recommend this, but how about the knot techique they use in eastern Europe. Berndt Arnold runs it out twenty feet on 5.12 climbing on a tiny knot stuffed into a pocket, and he's still alive, so maybe you want to try it. Actually, you probably want to read up on it first (it ain't no overhand knot), but it sure would be cool to use them. Everyone in your community would be impressed.


clandestino


May 4, 2004, 12:39 PM
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Re: PRO for pockets/shalow holes??? [In reply to]
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About Arnold and a knot in the pockets:
Arnold does it on a sandstone only.
The thing about that kind of sandstone is that it has often iron like coating
on the surface, either as a flakes or as a kind of a rim around shorter cracks and around pockets and it is usually quite jagged but blunt ...so you
can sort of vedge it in(the knot) and it can be as good of a pro as is bomber choc placement ....
(i did grow up(climbing vice) on eastern euro sandstone :D )

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