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moeman
Apr 24, 2004, 1:49 AM
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Ok, so its time to start leaning the basics of aid climbing. I figure I should learn with a standard aider system first, then maybe switch to Russians later (if they ever actually come out).
So I know how the basic systems of aiding with a 4-aider system work; it seems pretty logical. Clip aiders to placement, climb aiders amke new placement, get into next set. Repeat until summit. (ok I know this is super-simplified, ignoring daisies and the whatnot, but I'll figure those out).
But I have heard various climbers mention using a 2 aider system (with a third aider held in reserve for traverses) I'm a bit confused about how a two-aider system would work. Do you make the placement, then habg all your weight on the daisy while moving up the one set of aiders?
What are the advantages and disadvantages of this system? It obviously reduces the clusterf&*%, but does it make the vertical progression easier/more efficent.
Should I learn on a 2-aider system, or start on 4? I'm thinking of starting with two just because I am a cheap bastard, and am also always seaching for a shortcut, the easier way. So which is the easier way?
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strider
Apr 24, 2004, 2:27 AM
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The two aider method I have used utilizes two Yates wall ladders. These bad boys are big and you can fit two feet on one ladder rung. This way you have one yates wall ladder per daisy. These things are burly and carrying 4 of them seems like over-kill.
If you are using traditional aiders (small foot loops) then I imagine that you would stand on your piece, place the next piece and hang from the upper daisy. Then you would have to transfer both aiders from the lower piece to the upper piece, rinse and repeat. I guess you could use one traditional aider per daisy but your going to strain a lot since your feet will always be unlevel due to the irregular steps on a traditional aider(I guess you could stack your feet into one small foot loop on a traditional aider).
I like adj. aiders. It's a personal preference.
climb safe
-n
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mother_sheep
Apr 24, 2004, 2:37 AM
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When I first started aiding I used a 3 aider system. Then I went to a 2 aider system and used the Yates Big Wall Ladders and did just what strider did. I put 2 feet on 1 rung. At first, I was having trouble top stepping using this method but after some practice, it became second nature. The 2 aider system worked better for me because it was one less piece of gear that I had to worry about getting tangled up in. Would love to try the adj aiders! There is no need to carry an additional aider when using that system right? Just 2 required at all times?????
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euphoriagtrst
Apr 24, 2004, 2:48 AM
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This is just my opinion and I am by no means an expert but 4 aiders (I've got a standard 4 and 5 step for each daisy chain) are superior b/c 1) it allows you to stand with your feet at the same level and 2) it allows you to spread your feet apart- both of which improve your balance if having to reach to the side or top-step to get to the next placement. I guess if you really didn't want to pay for four aiders or minimize tangling, you could do one per daisy and keep one in reserve on your harness for balancy situations. I just think it's easier with two per daisy. Making sure each one is a different color may help with keeping the whole mess from becoming a tangled cluster----.....
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euphoriagtrst
Apr 24, 2004, 2:50 AM
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This is just my opinion and I am by no means an expert but 4 aiders (I've got a standard 4 and 5 step for each daisy chain) are superior b/c 1) it allows you to stand with your feet at the same level and 2) it allows you to spread your feet apart- both of which improve your balance if having to reach to the side or top-step to get to the next placement. I guess if you really didn't want to pay for four aiders or minimize tangling, you could do one per daisy and keep one in reserve on your harness for balancy situations. I just think it's easier with two per daisy. Making sure each one is a different color may help with keeping the whole mess from becoming a tangled cluster----.....
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strider
Apr 24, 2004, 2:50 AM
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not trying to hijack the thread, but...
yes, when you use adj. aiders you only need two. And since they are strapped to your feet, they really shine on traverses or overhangs. Heck, in my opinion adj. aider shine all the time.
Also keep in mind that since these things are attached to your feet, they will only increase your clusterfuckage, they will never reduce it. You have to be very aware of what is clipped where and what you clip it through. When I started using them, all to often I would have to take the aiders off because something got clipped behind it. Now I am a lot more comfortable with them and things stay pretty organized all the time.
They also pack super small and light. When I am done with them I simply tie a 8 on a bight in the webbing and clip the foot loop to the carabiner. Nice and compact and doesn't get tangled on anything.
-n
edit: thats stupid, the potty mouth bot changed the work cluster****age to just fuck. Stupid thing could at least keep the word the same...
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 24, 2004, 3:04 AM
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With 2 adjustable daisies there is no need in my opinion for 4 aiders. If you need to stand in both aiders to reach the next placement it is no big deal. just fire up a daisy, clip in and take a hang. reach down, grab an aider and move it up. 4 is just a cluster. I am self taught so I probobly do a lot of things wrong but they seem to work for me.
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bigwalling
Apr 24, 2004, 3:36 AM
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Adjustable aiders, very interesting to watch someone use these. I don't think I'd be into it but it works for some. But then I don't even like adjustable dasies. In fact I recommend that you just tie up some of your own daisies with some webbing, this will save you some good cash.
As for aiders, I'd get the yates speed ladders. I have a bigwall one and a speed one. Can't tell the difference. I think they are 20-25 dollars. So if you are a true cheap ass, you could make ya own.
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holdplease2
Apr 24, 2004, 3:44 AM
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And, so, like, when I was teaching myself aid in the bouldering gym...
And I had adjustable aider and daisy setup...
The adjustables were fine...until I started traversing around. I looked like one of those goddamn string puppets that I can't spell that starts with an M.
Dude, what a mess. I can't even tell you.
Still, the boulderers were impressed.
They were blinded by the fury of my gear and whatnot. In their eyes, I was the nylon queen. Nylonlady I am called until this day in chicagoland.
I now use a 3 aider system, so here is a *Word of warning*
In the event that you store your third or "floating" aider folded up on the back of your harness when it is not in use, don't forget its there when you have to take a crap.
-Kate.
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popol
Apr 24, 2004, 6:49 AM
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I'm just using 2 aiders like you are using 4 aiders: 1 aider for every piece of gear i.s.o. 2.
The disadvantage is that you can't spread your legs, and stand on the same level with both feet. The advantage is that it tangles less, and you can stabilize your feet against each other. Helps me a lot when top stepping.
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epic_ed
Apr 24, 2004, 7:38 AM
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Adjustable aiders = Marrionette, in my experience. An additional problem is trying to bust a free move or two if you're using them. You can't just step out of them like you can a ladder.
After using a 4 aider system the past two years, I've decided that using 2 would be much more streamlined and efficient and after I master the system it will equate to faster climbing. Right now it's a pain trying to get used to it. I find the problem with the 4 aider system for me is it allows me to get too comfortable, therefore too lazy, therefore too slow.
Kate -- that's just nasty. But a mistake I'm sure to repeat, no doubt.
Ed
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adeptus
Apr 24, 2004, 7:39 AM
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I'm also only using two aiders (BD 5 step). It works good enough for me. I use a fifi hook on each aider so it's fast and easy.
1 Make a new placement.
2 Test by a light bounce on daisy.
3 Hang on lower piece with fifi from harness.
4 Attach first aider to new piece.
5 Bounce lightly, then commit and keep daisy tight
6 Bring up second aider
7 Walk up the aiders while keeping the daisy tight
It's a big help to have adjustable daisys with fifi hooks for the 2 aider method.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 24, 2004, 1:52 PM
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I use the 2 aider system. Big fat ladder type. I use the adjustable daisys as well. I tension against the adjustable daisy to keep ballance while top stepping. Clip the new piece w/ the either the 2nd tre or the daisy depending on the siruation. Either way I try to get the adjustable daisy clipped and weighted right away(save my tendonitis) I pull in on the daisy as i step up the aiders. this is fast and smooth. It works for me.
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crackboy
Apr 26, 2004, 6:13 AM
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i have practiced using 2 aiders, but i do it differently than everyone else has stated so far. i climb my ladders to the top, get your new piece, clip in with your other daisy, hang reach down and pull up your pair of aiders and slap them on the piece you are hanging from . rinse lather repeat
it makes you get off your originaly daisy fast, so i guess could limit the chances of a daisy fall should the piece you are on blow
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ricardol
Apr 26, 2004, 4:52 PM
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In reply to: I'm also only using two aiders (BD 5 step). It works good enough for me. I use a fifi hook on each aider so it's fast and easy. 1 Make a new placement. 2 Test by a light bounce on daisy. 3 Hang on lower piece with fifi from harness. 4 Attach first aider to new piece. 5 Bounce lightly, then commit and keep daisy tight 6 Bring up second aider 7 Walk up the aiders while keeping the daisy tight It's a big help to have adjustable daisys with fifi hooks for the 2 aider method.
adeptus ..
.. do you have a "testing" daisy that has a biner on the end? -- (like a cowstail that doesn't go anywhere except to the biner ?
.. otherwise i'm having a hard time figuring out how you keep from loosing gear if it pops during testing, or while you are standing up on it ..
.. since your aiders are on fifi's ..
-- ricardo
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lqdslvr
Apr 26, 2004, 5:19 PM
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Long and Middendorf's Big Wall book offers a good explanation of the two-, three-, and four- aider method. I have used the two aider method and it works fine for my level of aid (relative noob). In a nutshell, have each aider on a different biner). One aider will clip to the piece (or a biner on the piece) and the second aider clips into the first's biner. These are therefore not exactly even, but near enough. After you place the next piece, stand on the aider clipped to the bottom piece and remove the lower aider, using it to clip the higher piece. Test the higher peice and shift to the higher aider. Then move the aider onthe lower piece up, clipping it to the biner holding the now higher aider. I don't know if I clearly explained that, but it is quite logical and works well on easier ground. I don't aid above c1-c2 right now, so I can't vouch for it on an A5 widowmaker.
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adeptus
Apr 26, 2004, 5:31 PM
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Good observation ricardol!
I actually do have a regular daisy that I only use for testing. The reason I have my aiders on fifis is that it makes it possible to retrieve them from above, via the keeper cord, when doing an occasional free move.
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