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jxl914
Apr 27, 2004, 12:24 AM
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Alright, I was climbing this past Saturday and having a great time. As I topped out a trad climb, a climber ran over to us asking for help with his injured partner. Apparently he rapelled off the end of his rope and fell maybe twenty or thirty feet on to the talus below. By the time we got to him, his partner had already gotten him up and movng so I was real worried that a possible back injury could be made far worse.
My partner, the injured climber's partner, and I began taking turns in pairs carrying him out, probably a mile or so. We were moving over rough terrain and trying not to move him too much. We were all getting seriously tired. We passed by three climbers who were top roping and asked them for help. They said they were busy climbing and didn't want to. Once we got the guy out and met with the ambulance, we went back in with the remaining daylight and grabbed our gear. As we passed them on the way back in, they didn't even ask if he was okay or anything. I figured we had all had enough trouble for one day so I didn't say anything. The fact that they wouldn't help out really hit me hard. I've always tried to be friendly with everyone I meet at the crag as I have always felt there was some kind of bond between climbers. I guess I just figured that at the very least, you had better help out because you never know when you might need it.
I don't know what I'm expecting as far as replies to this, I just felt like sharing.
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slablizard
Apr 27, 2004, 12:33 AM
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You did what whas right man. Good Karma for you, that's all that matters.
Hope the injured climber will recover soon.
As for the others, they just need to hope they never get hurt, need help and find somebody with their same attitude around.
Too busy toproping? Geez, they deserve their rope cut to pieces.(well not while thy're climbing, I'm not that mean)
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dwise
Apr 27, 2004, 12:34 AM
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That's sad. Those turds should beat themselves severely with #5 camalots.
Most climbers are cool and always willing to help out someone in need, but, unfortunately, there's always a few bad apples.
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musicman
Apr 27, 2004, 12:39 AM
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yeah, that is probabaly one of the lamest things i've ever heard, whenever i drive past a car before the paramedics are there i try to do whatever i can, atleast if i know what i'm doing, half the time there are people just standing there looking, its really lame how self-centered people can be, some lady didn't want to get a blanket for some guy cause she didn't want on it. well, i thiink you just earned yourself a good nights rest and a lot of karma! good work man
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corey
Apr 27, 2004, 12:42 AM
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All you can do is be happy in the fact that you place human life above a climb. Helping another person is not a requirement of living, though it is part of my "do unto others" philosophy, as well and just something I believe is right. Taking a few moments to help someone pick up dropped items, or give directions, or even letting a car merge in traffic are all insignifigant in the timeline of your life, but the positive effect can ripple.
Some people are jerks. My "kneejerk" reaction was that I would have gone back and laid into them, hopefully using abrasive enough words to provoke a fight, then, when the dust settled, leave THEM there. However, reason took over and I returned to the notion that, not everyone does the "right" thing, just because it's "right".
This being said, I've been told I can be an a$$hole, because I speak directly and am a little intense, but I still help people if/when I can.
You did a good thing, just stick with that.
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curt
Apr 27, 2004, 12:44 AM
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Perhaps the climbers you ran across were just ignorant. I would have explained to them that they really should assist in a climbing rescue--if asked. This has been a unwritten rule in climbing forever.
Curt
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dorkmaster
Apr 27, 2004, 12:51 AM
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kudos to you man. Screw those jerks though. :shock:
good job not laying into them, I would have given them the tounge lashing they deserve.
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the_antoon
Apr 27, 2004, 1:01 AM
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yea man, good job keeping your cool. Frankly I am kinda shocked at those climbers. I have never even heard of climbers acting that way. They better hope they never need help...Karma?... :twisted:
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chanceboarder
Apr 27, 2004, 1:19 AM
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:wtf: i'm at a loss for words on this one. all i can say is good for you for doing the right thing and helpin the injured climber out, hope he's alright. as for the dorks who couldn't drop even lift a finger to help out cuz they were top ropping :roll: i'm sure they'll get theirs some day. life has a way of weeding those people out, you know they're the people that make the 10 o'clock news for doing something stupid.
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tgreene
Apr 27, 2004, 1:29 AM
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100 good Karma points for you, and another 10pt bonus for not lashing out at the others.
It is possible that they really weren't "climbers" in the true sense of the word, but merely locals with ropes and harness'... "IF" this were the case (and I've encountered it on whitewater), they wouldn't have understood the credo and dire need for support.
Anyway, you did good, and the sun will shine again tomorrow, bright and early! :)
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paganmonkeyboy
Apr 27, 2004, 1:44 AM
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In reply to: We passed by three climbers who were top roping and asked them for help. They said they were busy climbing and didn't want to. Once we got the guy out and met with the ambulance, we went back in with the remaining daylight and grabbed our gear. As we passed them on the way back in, they didn't even ask if he was okay or anything.
weak. way weak...
sorry you had to deal with chumps like that under such a situation. kudos to you for all you did.
I never met a climber I didn't like. In this case I would have made an exception...
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brutusofwyde
Apr 27, 2004, 1:47 AM
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In reply to: Perhaps the climbers you ran across were just ignorant. I would have explained to them that they really should assist in a climbing rescue--if asked. This has been a unwritten rule in climbing forever. Curt
Having been peripheral to several rescues where rescuers and participants were either sued or lashed out (after the fact) at by the victim, I am very sad to say that I will seriously think twice before I offer to assist in a rescue situation.
That being said, I am concerned with the evacuation of a victim "trying not to move him too much" without clearing the C-spine. If the C-spine had been cleared, my apologies. That was not apparent in the original post.
Learn wilderness first aid. Learn the signs and symptoms of C-spine injury, and how to assess (from MOI among other information available) whether C-spine may be an issue.
Learn to clear the spine if necessary.
Brutus
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curt
Apr 27, 2004, 2:02 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Perhaps the climbers you ran across were just ignorant. I would have explained to them that they really should assist in a climbing rescue--if asked. This has been a unwritten rule in climbing forever. Curt Having been peripheral to several rescues where rescuers and participants were either sued or lashed out (after the fact) at by the victim, I am very sad to say that I will seriously think twice before I offer to assist in a rescue situation. Brutus
Brutus,
In most States, "good samaritan" laws preclude liability of a rescuer trying to help an injured victim in good faith. There are limitations to this, but (in general) someone coming to the aid of an accident victim, climbing or not, is immune from prosecution for a bad outcome.
Curt
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bandycoot
Apr 27, 2004, 2:14 AM
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You might be protected in the end but it wouldn't be fun hiring a laywer to argue your case. That said, I would have helped as well. Good job and I'm sure those others will get what's coming to them down the road. :twisted:
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camhead
Apr 27, 2004, 2:20 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Perhaps the climbers you ran across were just ignorant. I would have explained to them that they really should assist in a climbing rescue--if asked. This has been a unwritten rule in climbing forever. Curt Having been peripheral to several rescues where rescuers and participants were either sued or lashed out (after the fact) at by the victim, I am very sad to say that I will seriously think twice before I offer to assist in a rescue situation. Brutus Brutus, In most States, "good samaritan" laws preclude liability of a rescuer trying to help an injured victim in good faith. There are limitations to this, but (in general) someone coming to the aid of an accident victim, climbing or not, is immune from prosecution for a bad outcome. Curt
Curt's right. As far as I am aware (learned it in the WFR class), no private citizen has EVER been sued successfully for attempting a rescue. You should only have to worry if you are a doctor, paramedic, or something of that sort. Not sure how S&R members would stand.
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jv
Apr 27, 2004, 2:28 AM
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The problem with good samaritan laws is that they don't protect you from prosecution, i.e., a lawsuit, but only from liability for damages if you acted reasonably. If the victim sues you, he gets his day in court to make the argument that you acted unreasonably. It's not that hard to act unreasonably either. Say for example that this victim had a neck or back fracture, and would have survived being immobilized for a few hours while someone went to get help. Had he been paralyzed as a result of being carried out without a backboard/neckbrace, that would be unreasonable, unless a judge or jury agreed that the rescuers acted reasonably given the information they had.
FWIW, I would have gotten involved too.
JV
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innominato
Apr 27, 2004, 2:32 AM
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jxl914--you did the right thing. It's too bad other "climbers" were too immersed in their solipsistic little worlds to help out. The day I did my first lead, in the Sandia Mountains above Albuquerque, New Mexico, we spent the morning helping heli-evac a guy who'd gotten off route and broken his leg on Muralla Grande. It's a huge area--basically alpine--and every climber in the vicinity came over to help, rapping off adjacent routes, crossing talus gullies, you name it.
That was 1987: 17 years ago. We've come a long way, haven't we?
Good karma and good thoughts your way for a kind deed.
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chodeman
Apr 27, 2004, 2:35 AM
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I dont know if i would have been able to keep my cool with those other climbers. I might have gone and retreived my rope and hung them. Good job to you though on keeping you cool and help the injured out. Hope the injured climber gets better
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tim
Apr 27, 2004, 2:36 AM
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Good samaritan laws aside, I usually help out when someone gets fucked up. It's the right thing to do, and I like to think that the karma has come in handy when I needed it. (I always stay self-sufficient, but I appreciate the kindness of strangers)
However, there have been a couple times where I really, really did not want to get involved, did everything to help short of participating in the rescue, and was not asked for a carry or direct involvement. In that case I did not feel like a dick because I was busy belaying my partner on a lead, and no one asked (eg. if someone had been bleeding from a head wound, or had a bone sticking out, I would have jumped in; but yet another stupid system failure resulting in a sprained ankle does not rouse the same primal 'oh shit' instinct in me anymore).
I can't just stand idly by and let someone die, though. Unless asked *not* to help, I feel obligated to tend to people in urgent need. I took a WFR course but never bothered with the test -- have carried out 3 rescues, one at altitude with a Stokes litter, and one with a rope team, and the simple way that I avoid lawsuit trouble is not to get into specifics like my name or where I'm from. Feel free to sue John Doe...
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tim
Apr 27, 2004, 2:41 AM
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In reply to: The day I did my first lead, in the Sandia Mountains above Albuquerque, New Mexico, we spent the morning helping heli-evac a guy who'd gotten off route and broken his leg on Muralla Grande. It's a huge area--basically alpine--and every climber in the vicinity came over to help, rapping off adjacent routes, crossing talus gullies, you name it. That was 1987: 17 years ago. We've come a long way, haven't we?
I actually feel like people are a lot more helpful in alpine settings because it's easier to see that an immobile victim is likely to die of exposure. At a crag, unless there's blood all over the place, you see more of a "they'll be fine" kind of response. My personal standard is that if the victim is likely to be permanently injured or die without my assistance, I assist unless asked not to; otherwise, I will participate if asked.
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jillian
Apr 27, 2004, 2:46 AM
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I just though I'd add: I was with Joe last saturday when the situation happened, and the unhelpful climbers were locals. although i hardly think it gives them the right to be like that. I've been on the other side of that table before and I am unbelievable grateful to all the people that banned together to help my friend. Rock climbing is a risky pass-time and if you do it enough, even the safest climbers can find them selves in a bad situation.
As far as a back injury; before his partner came to us, the injured guy was sitting up and had actually decided he'd try and 'hop' out until the adrenaline rush died and he realized how badly broken it was. Then is where the partner found us around the corner of the rock face. About half way through carrying him out he started complaining about back pain whick led us to worry a bit, but at that point we were practially out anyway.
The long and short of it is, if you even encounter someone in trouble help them out... fines can be paid and gear can be replaced.
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innominato
Apr 27, 2004, 3:23 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: The day I did my first lead, in the Sandia Mountains above Albuquerque, New Mexico, we spent the morning helping heli-evac a guy who'd gotten off route and broken his leg on Muralla Grande. It's a huge area--basically alpine--and every climber in the vicinity came over to help, rapping off adjacent routes, crossing talus gullies, you name it. That was 1987: 17 years ago. We've come a long way, haven't we? I actually feel like people are a lot more helpful in alpine settings because it's easier to see that an immobile victim is likely to die of exposure. At a crag, unless there's blood all over the place, you see more of a "they'll be fine" kind of response. My personal standard is that if the victim is likely to be permanently injured or die without my assistance, I assist unless asked not to; otherwise, I will participate if asked.
That's a good point. Some time ago at Rifle, a climber took a horrible groundfall, but so many people were in the canyon that day and already helping out that I didn't want to be just another gawker or in the way. It happened up canyon from us, and plenty of people, including a doctor and WFR had the situation as under control as possible until an ambulance showed up. I guess it's all situational, but it's still hard to believe that other climbers wouldn't volunteer to carry in a back-injury situation, where you want the patient as immobilized and comfortable as possible.
They used to call people in the 1980s the "Me Generation," but that appellation seemingly came 20 years too soon.
Be safe, all of you.
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climbingaggie03
Apr 27, 2004, 3:49 AM
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Ok, so as someone who's been on both sides of a rescue, I'd definitely have to aggree that if you didn't know what was up with his spine, then you should have had him stay still, and called an ambulance. Paramedics will come to the accident site, even if it's away from the road (within reason) I had a bad deck fall, and was carried out of a canyon (on a stretcher)
and are you sure those guys that refused to help realized how bad the situation was? I know i've been asked for help before, and at first i thought someone had tripped and fallen, I didn't realize that they had fallen off a climb.
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ullr
Apr 27, 2004, 4:19 AM
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First off. Hats off to you and your character. You did your best to help out in a less than ideal situation. Then showed good character by staying above it all and not slamming the others who did not help.
In reply to: Learn wilderness first aid. Learn the signs and symptoms of C-spine injury, and how to assess (from MOI among other information available) whether C-spine may be an issue. Learn to clear the spine if necessary. Brutus
As far as 'clearing' C-Spine. This is not possible in the field. The only definitive way is a cross-table c-spine film (x-ray) that is read by a radiologist or an ER MD. A 30 ft. ground fall is a 'Level 1 By Mechanism' injury with standard protocol being a c-spine film to rule out an unstable fracture. I have seen probably a half a dozen patients with unstable c-spine and t-spine fractures who have had no neurological compromise upon physical exam, but ended up having unstable fractures after a CT or normal radiological exam was done. Often times the pain upon palpation of the c-spine can be overshadowed by perhaps a femur fracture or shoulder dislocation.
With a one mile hike out you have to weigh the options of immediate evacuation or the lengthened time waiting for a probable overweight crew of medics to haul the victim out on a backboard.
While waiting for a back board, etc., you could die of a hemothorax, pneumothorax, ruptured spleen or kidney, etc.So it is a bit of a judgement call that can only be assessed by the rescuers on scene. Of course a solid medical background doesn't hurt. But there is no way to diagnose anything in the field. Except for the lack of a huge pneumothorax or obvious long bone fracture or the like.
Just some thoughts.
I was a paramedic for seven years and worked with only a handful of other medics that could hike up talus for a mile, then haul out a 150 pound climber on a backboard without having a heart attack themselves. :roll:
Too much donut eating on those 24 hour shifts.
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vincent
Apr 27, 2004, 4:32 AM
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thanks for that solid medical debriefing Doogie..
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