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madmax
Apr 27, 2004, 3:06 PM
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I didn't personally witness this accident, but here's what I was told happened. A guy was leading Coyne Crack and was headed up to the good hand jam at the ripple about half way up the climb. His last piece was at the one other good hand jam about eight feet below. He fell onto the cam which broke the rock and pulled, and then (and here's the freaky part) the carabiner on the next cam came undone from the sling attached to the cam and he decked. The broke his femur, but miraculously missed the sizeable rock at the base of Coyne Crack.
Here is what I gather happened. The guy place the cam that pulled at the first little ripple (where you get you first solid jam, shortly after the crux). He apparently placed the cam at the one spot on the entire climb where a piece of rock could break. The biner on the previous cam was sticky and had remained opened, and in the course of the fall, managed to unhook itself from the sling on the cam (the cam was still in the crack, while the biner was on the rope).
Unfortunately, this entire accident was due to pilot error. I don't know what the guy's experience was with sandstone, but if he'd placed the cam that pulled four inches higher or lower, the rock wouldn't have broke and the whole accident would have been avoided. The biner that was left opened and unhooked from the sling was obviously pilot error, and belayer inattention.
It took Monticello S&R three hours to evacute the guy. Hopefully he has a speedy recovery.
Added 4/29/04: Apparently I need to add that I was told what happened by a guy who saw it and he told me moments after the accident.
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boltdude
Apr 29, 2004, 6:42 AM
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There was also that accident a couple climbs left a year or two ago, on Keyhole Flakes (5.10). That's a climb that could definitely see pro pull due to rock flexing/breaking, if you lead that climb don't fall in the first 30'.
Guess the other thing to learn out of this incident is to pay attention to keeping your 'biners in good shape & lube them if they start getting sticky.
Hope there's a speedy recovery!
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mheyman
Apr 29, 2004, 12:29 PM
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In reply to: Unfortunately, this entire accident was due to pilot error. I don't know what the guy's experience was with sandstone, but if he'd placed the cam that pulled four inches higher or lower, the rock wouldn't have broke and the whole accident would have been avoided.
Exactly how do you get "experince with sandstone" except perhaps by aiding. Good evaluation skills might help keep you safe.
In reply to: The biner that was left opened and unhooked from the sling was obviously pilot error, and belayer inattention.
Are you saying to iners gate was sticky anfter the accident?
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madmax
Apr 29, 2004, 2:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Unfortunately, this entire accident was due to pilot error. I don't know what the guy's experience was with sandstone, but if he'd placed the cam that pulled four inches higher or lower, the rock wouldn't have broke and the whole accident would have been avoided. Exactly how do you get "experince with sandstone" except perhaps by aiding. Good evaluation skills might help keep you safe. In reply to: The biner that was left opened and unhooked from the sling was obviously pilot error, and belayer inattention. Are you saying to iners gate was sticky anfter the accident?
By "experience with sandstone," I meant, among other things, that the same placement would probably have held in granite, for example. As far as I see it, "good evaluation skills" comes from lots of experience climbing a particular type of stone.
I'm not sure what your questions is. The biner's gate was left open (we all have those sticky biners) after he clipped the rope to it and the force of the piece pulling somehow unhooked the biner from the sling on the cam.
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fitzontherocks
Apr 29, 2004, 2:31 PM
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And how do you lube 'biners? WD-40? Gun oil? (I'm serious here. I've got one or two sticky ones.)
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crimpandgo
Apr 29, 2004, 2:34 PM
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You say this is due to pilot error... Are you saying it was obvious that the rock would break and he should have seen it?? So you really think he would place a piece at a location where he knew the rock would crack? I will assume he thought the placement was bomber and would assume the lesson here is to back up your placements if possible in case of unforseen failure. Just my two cents :? I wish the guy the best.
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madmax
Apr 29, 2004, 2:50 PM
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In reply to: You say this is due to pilot error... Are you saying it was obvious that the rock would break and he should have seen it?? So you really think he would place a piece at a location where he knew the rock would crack? I will assume he thought the placement was bomber and would assume the lesson here is to back up your placements if possible in case of unforseen failure. Just my two cents :? I wish the guy the best.
Obviously the guy didn't intentionally place the piece at a spot where the rock could break. I as well assume the guy thought the placement was bomber, but when you look up at the section where the rock broke, it is obvious that the choice of location was poor. Like I said, a couple inches higher or lower would have avoided the whole situation. Have you been on Coyne Crack? If you haven't, Coyne is splitter splitter. It has two little ripples (some people might call them bulges). It is very hard to describe the rock at those ripples, but at one of them there was a little chunk of rock basically only attached on two sides. If the cam had been placed four inches higher, then their wouldn't have been a need for another piece right below it. I think the more important lesson is to pay attention to the quality of your placements, rather then double up on every placement.
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bradhill
Apr 29, 2004, 3:35 PM
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"We all have those sticky biners."
Yeah, but they're on the hammock on my deck, not my rack.
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mheyman
Apr 29, 2004, 3:37 PM
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In reply to: I think the more important lesson is to pay attention to the quality of your placements, rather then double up on every placement.
So you are say that he did not pay good enough attention, and that this would be obvious to someone doing the route who did. Guess I'm thinking a bad placement is a bad placement.
In reply to: (we all have those sticky biners)
??? No, can't say I do. Maybe it's cause I use a lot of wire-gates (but not all). If If found a sticky gate I fix it or toss it though. Heck, I carry and use more lockers than most people I know too.
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sarcat
Apr 29, 2004, 3:53 PM
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I retire all the sticky gate biners I've had. Don't know why it just seems "unsafe to lube them up" and use them some more. I'd say this is only 3-4 over the last 10 years.
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madmax
Apr 29, 2004, 3:55 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I think the more important lesson is to pay attention to the quality of your placements, rather then double up on every placement. So you are say that he did not pay good enough attention, and that this would be obvious to someone doing the route who did. Guess I'm thinking a bad placement is a bad placement. In reply to: (we all have those sticky biners) ??? No, can't say I do. Maybe it's cause I use a lot of wire-gates (but not all). If If found a sticky gate I fix it or toss it though. Heck, I carry and use more lockers than most people I know too.
I'm not sure what your point is here. Yes, obviously a bad placement is a bad placement. That is exactly why I stressed the importance of quality/good placements, rather then the importance of doubling up on placements (ain't gonna do ya much good to have three placements in a row if they are all "bad.").
As far as sticky biners go, must be nice to afford all wire gates or always buy new biners. I know, they're not that expensive, but we're talking about climbers here, who, on the whole, are often poor. If you don't have any biners that are less then perfect, you need to go out, climb more, and work less; then you'll have some biners that are sticky and you won't have the money to replace them.
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j_ung
Apr 29, 2004, 4:00 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I think the more important lesson is to pay attention to the quality of your placements, rather then double up on every placement. So you are say that he did not pay good enough attention, and that this would be obvious to someone doing the route who did. Guess I'm thinking a bad placement is a bad placement. In reply to: (we all have those sticky biners) ??? No, can't say I do. Maybe it's cause I use a lot of wire-gates (but not all). If If found a sticky gate I fix it or toss it though. Heck, I carry and use more lockers than most people I know too.
:wtf:
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scottharms
Apr 29, 2004, 4:04 PM
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In reply to: And how do you lube 'biners? WD-40? Gun oil? (I'm serious here. I've got one or two sticky ones.)
Metolius has a cam/binder lube that is safe but they state not to get any of it on the slings or webbing. I use it on my cams and beaners and it works quite well. It sets up in about 10 minutes and is supposed to repel dust or dirt unlike most conventional oils.
Cheers
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pawilkes
Apr 29, 2004, 4:33 PM
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a buddy of mine would use liquid graphite to loosen up sticky biners, worked really well and it is probably more easily acquired and cheaper
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robmcc
Apr 29, 2004, 5:10 PM
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In reply to: And how do you lube 'biners? WD-40? Gun oil? (I'm serious here. I've got one or two sticky ones.)
I throw them away and buy new ones. (Really, I just throw them away. The pile of spares obviates any need for buying replacements.)
Rob
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telluryan
Apr 29, 2004, 5:21 PM
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i personally don't like the metolius cam lube. i think it actually gunks up and causes sticking after a bit. Seems like the stuff attracts more debris. Just my opinion......
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madmax
Apr 29, 2004, 5:58 PM
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I was just contacted by a friend of the injured climber who felt I mischaracterized the accident as "pilot error" and felt it was inappropriate of me to pass judgement on the accident. I did not mean to disrespect any parties involved in this accident, especially the climber, by saying it was due to pilot error. The person who contacted me told me the accident was due to a design flaw with the biner, but he was unable to provide more details.
While I did not witness the accident, I made this post with information I got from someone who did witness it. If you are a friend of the injured climber and feel it was inappropriate of me to make the post or that the post was intended to be a definitive description of what happened (and was inaccurate), I apologize.
I do, however, still stand by the assertion that the piece that pulled was due to pilot error. I don't mean this as a criticism of the climbers abilities or experience. My point is even the most experienced climbers make mistakes. On the other hand, if the biner that unhooked from the cam was in fact the result of a design flaw (sticky gates on old biners are not design flaws), then I certainly mischaracterized the accident. Either way, I apologize to anyone insulted by my post.
If someone has more info on this accident, please inform us.
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camhead
Apr 29, 2004, 6:20 PM
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whoa. glad he is all right.
Coyne probably sees more hangdogs/falls, etc. than all other cracks of its grade at the Creek combined. I am familiar with the spot that the cam pulled, and it is not surprising that this happened; given the traffic the route gets, it was bound to happen sooner or later.
word on the "sandstone skills" warning. I think that a lot of people get overconfident on placements at the Creek, since they are so parallel and straightforward. Folks seem to forget that this is still sandstone, it is not always bomber, and you should probably not treat whippers and runouts as casually as you would on a comparable granite placement.
Anyway, glad the dude isn't dead, and I hope the cam pullout didn't create a bomber handjam, or Coyne will get downgraded AGAIN. hehe. cheers all, and see ya at 'da Creek in a week.
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rradjc
Apr 29, 2004, 7:05 PM
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I agree with the 'sandstone experience'. I've witnessed a number of people at IC , Red Rock, and Sedona who are used to running it out on granite and other rock types and place few pieces and/or too close to the edge of the rock. Heck a simple testament to this is to wander to nearby Fingers in a Lightsocket and see all the scars in the rock from small cam blowouts. A few years ago I watched a female climber fall from 3/4 way up on 30 seconds over Potash. She pulled 8 of the 9 pieces she placed and decked. She bruised her wrist amazingly and after she was taken in the ambulance I collected her gear to find she had every cam at its max extension; they were essentially sitting in the crack. She said she had previous experience in Little Cottonwood (granite) which may have held such dangerous placements.
I'm glad the guy who fell is ok. We've not had such luck lately with falls out in AZ.
As much as it hurts to throw a biner away, I feel the best way to know your gear is good is to get rid of faulty stuff; is a possible deck fall worth the $7+ you could have spend on a new biner? Furthermore, I can't think of what a design flaw on a carabiner might be that would not be easily detectable prior to using.
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kman
Apr 29, 2004, 9:35 PM
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In reply to: Here is what I gather happened. The guy place the cam that pulled at the first little ripple (where you get you first solid jam, shortly after the crux). He apparently placed the cam at the one spot on the entire climb where a piece of rock could break. The biner on the previous cam was sticky and had remained opened, and in the course of the fall, managed to unhook itself from the sling on the cam (the cam was still in the crack, while the biner was on the rope). Unfortunately, this entire accident was due to pilot error.....
Duuude...you're talking out of your a$$. At the beggining of your post you said you did not personally witness the accident and only heard about it. So how can you say that the biner was open because it was sticky :?: Did you actually see the biner? Probably not eh. Everything you said after "here is what I gather happened" is pretty much useless info. Get your facts strait before you post accident reports.
Anyways, good to hear that the guy survived. Hopefully he heals up quickly.
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madmax
Apr 29, 2004, 9:46 PM
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In reply to: Duuude...you're talking out of your a$$. At the beggining of your post you said you did not personally witness the accident and only heard about it. So how can you say that the biner was open because it was sticky :?: Did you actually see the biner? Probably not eh. Everything you said after "here is what I gather happened" is pretty much useless info. Get your facts strait before you post accident reports. Anyways, good to hear that the guy survived. Hopefully he heals up quickly.
I can say the biner was open because a guy who did witness the accident told me minutes after it occured. So no, I didn't actuall see the biner, but when a guy who personally saw the accident told me he saw the open biner, I see no reason not to believe him. Additionally, I just corresponded with a friend of the injured climber who, although disagreed with my characterization of the events as pilot error, didn't deny my description of the facts.
So, duuuude, read the details of the posts before you start ranting.
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allarounder
Apr 29, 2004, 10:14 PM
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"Furthermore, I can't think of what a design flaw on a carabiner might be that would not be easily detectable prior to using."
How about internal gas bubbles in the aluminum left over from improper cooling when the rodstock was cast?
How about microfractures from poor crystal formation, again due to improper casting techniques?
Hmmm. what else?
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mheyman
Apr 30, 2004, 12:21 PM
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In reply to: As far as sticky biners go, must be nice to afford all wire gates or always buy new biners. I know, they're not that expensive, but we're talking about climbers here, who, on the whole, are often poor... you need to go out, climb more, and work less
True, how true. Maybe when the kid are grown if I am not too decrepit.
In reply to: then you'll have some biners that are sticky and you won't have the money to replace them
Right now I pay for life insurance. If I am gonna climb, then I believe it is cost effective to climb on safe gear, and a lot more fun.
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thehonemaster
May 12, 2004, 5:12 AM
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hello there I am the poor sap who is the basis of all the discussion on this thread. first of all the cam that pulled is a number 2 w.c friend which to my understanding is almost unheard of as far as pulling out . however it had been raining for several days before I climbed that fateful day and we waited about a day before climbing but maybe after several days of soaking rain that wasn't enough. as far as the gate sticking on my biner it didn't happen. the design flaw spoken of is hard to explain but essentially the nose of the biner and the gate had a misalignment that caused a slight notch that the flat sling of the cam could catch on causing it to pull the gate open. it is not exceptionally noticeable until you look very carefully at the biner trying to figure out how it could have happened. nobody is sure this is what happened it is just the only way we can think it could possibly happen(in an extreme freaky way) as far as where the cam was placed I cant remember where or what happened after piece number 3 ( the one that unclipped ,piece 4 is the one that pulled)but I consider myself a competent leader and dont "just throw in a piece" but there is a possibility of a weakness I didn't see. P.S. the biners were a bent gate made by simond with a keylock which is the reverse of a petzl in that the key part is on the gate itself.
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