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galf
Apr 30, 2004, 4:22 AM
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Hi,
I was wondering was is the "safe" depth of a bat hook hole?
Would it be better if it got lower as it got deeper or horizontal is best?
How many hammer blows are needed (considering your top stepping) tp create a good one using a rockpecker?
On another note, I've seen 5/16 machine bolts used as rivets in quarter ingh holes. What's the best machine bolt-hole length combination?
Cheers,
Guillaume
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glockaroo
Apr 30, 2004, 2:15 PM
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Ideally, the bat hook hole should go all the way through the cliff, in order to facilitate future ascents on the opposite side. You've got to be proactive and consider the future climbing generations.
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galf
Apr 30, 2004, 3:20 PM
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WOW!!!!!!!
That was useful! :roll:
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noshoesnoshirt
Apr 30, 2004, 3:52 PM
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don't know if there is a safe depth. the amount of hook in contact with the rock is limited by the dimensions of the hook (assuming a 1/4" standard for the hole). as long as your hook can be fully inserted, you've done all you can.
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glockaroo
Apr 30, 2004, 4:00 PM
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In reply to: WOW!!!!!!! That was useful! :roll:
If you have to ask about drilling bathook holes, maybe you shouldn't be drilling them.
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deleted
Deleted
Apr 30, 2004, 5:37 PM
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[quote:d3780afe9a="glockaroo"]If you have to ask about drilling bathook holes, maybe you shouldn't be drilling them.[/quote:d3780afe9a]
i disagree. i know of few climbers who came outta' the chute knowing all this stuff. how is someone expected to learn without asking questions?
the question appears completely valid to [i:d3780afe9a]me[/i:d3780afe9a].
now ... though i [i:d3780afe9a]do[/i:d3780afe9a] climb quite a bit of aid, i've drilled few holes for hooks. of the ones i have, it was so long ago i've forgotten. i know it's not rocket surgery, though ... i'm certain you'll get a straight answer soon.
remember: elitism is for those who find that arrogance just isn’t smug enough.
*by the way ... it would appear to my scientific mind that if noshoesnoshirt hasn't nailed it in his post (above), then surely he's on the right track.*
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glockaroo
Apr 30, 2004, 6:25 PM
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In reply to: ...elitism is for those who find that arrogance just isnt smug enough...
No elitism here, I leave that to the "solid belay bolts will damn your soul" crowd. I just feel that someone considering drilling hook holes would have been around in the climbing world long enough to not have to ask about it on the internet. But, maybe I'm wrong. YMMV.
http://us.st5.yimg.com/...ivators_1786_5415821
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deleted
Deleted
Apr 30, 2004, 6:42 PM
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yes, glock, it IS lonely at the top.
that's why it's nice to have you here to keep me company! :lol: :lol:
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glockaroo
Apr 30, 2004, 7:41 PM
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Hehe, sorry to sound so crusty, Geo. I see from your profile that, like myself, you are no longer under the illusion of indestructability (is that a real word?). Leadville sounds fantastic.
Arrogance, elitism, all we forgot to cover was pretension (I love these guys' posters):
http://us.st5.yimg.com/...ivators_1786_5702629
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deleted
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Apr 30, 2004, 8:21 PM
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oh, man ... i remember back in the day when i had my cocky little streak. i was ten feet tall and bulletproof.
somewhere along the line i've come to realize i'm just the best of the really sh*tty ones! :lol:
and, yeah ... leadville rocks. come on u sometime and let me by you a beer.
geo
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epic_ed
Apr 30, 2004, 11:05 PM
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:? I thought I was the best of the sh!tty ones?
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galf
May 1, 2004, 1:14 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: WOW!!!!!!! That was useful! :roll: If you have to ask about drilling bathook holes, maybe you shouldn't be drilling them.
If you had bothered to check my location, you would have seen that I'm very far for Yosemite, hence through my aid climbing experience I have yet to use one.
However, I plan on setting a route that goes through a short blank section and not being an asshole myself I prefer to leave a good bathook behind. That's all.
Could you guys give me any feeds about the machine bolt length for rivets??
Cheers,
Guillaume
______________________________
Even if this thread has been hijacked, ---> (keep the aid forum alive!!!)
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May 1, 2004, 1:28 AM
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guillaume --
i think glockaroo was just busting your chops (using sarcastic humor; kidding); we've pretty much worked it out and he's not actually an asshole after all.
i've pm'd this thead to atg200 and i'm certain he'll be able to enlighten us all. he's a total aid geek -- although he's currently under heavy sedation and undergoing electroshock therapy in an attempt to change that -- and pretty much knows everything.
regards,
geo
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socalclimber
May 1, 2004, 1:29 AM
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Well, I have had a number of conversations with some very good wall climbers and they seem to believe that a rivet placement is better than bathook's. Mainly, cause they can be easily seen and won't lead to more bathook holes if the leader misses the hole.
Robert
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galf
May 1, 2004, 1:51 AM
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In reply to: Mainly, cause they can be easily seen and won't lead to more bathook holes if the leader misses the hole. Robert
Very good point.
On that note, I've know that a machine bolt by 3 threads is bad... so I ask you again what hole depth and what 5/16 m. bolt length?
Guillaume
__________________
I don't think he's an asshole, I just don't wanna be one for future parties!
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socalclimber
May 1, 2004, 2:54 AM
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Taken as a direct quote from the Long/Middendorf book:
"Rivets used for aid are: 5/16-inch diameter, 3/4 inch long, course-threaded, grade 5 machine bolts that can be hammered securely in 17/64-inch holes. Depending on the rock, some hammering or filing down of the rivet threads may be necessary."
Help???
Robert
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May 1, 2004, 4:04 AM
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[quote:c65564cfe7="socalclimber"]... cause they can be easily seen and won't lead to more bathook holes if the leader misses the hole.[/quote:c65564cfe7]
[i:c65564cfe7]keerist[/i:c65564cfe7], people ... am i the only one in this joint who sees these things?
this is the part where you're supposed to say, [i:c65564cfe7]"put some hair around that thang!"[/i:c65564cfe7]
you're gonna' have to start taking some initiative around here; i won't be around forever, you know.
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galf
May 1, 2004, 4:18 AM
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On google i found this:
http://www.rockandice.com/.../dr%20piton.131.html
by our good ol' PTPP
He says 1 inch 5/16 grade 5 MBs in 1/4 holes....
and this:
A rivet is a 5/16" diameter, 3/4" long, coarse-thread, grade 5 machine bolts that is hammered into 1/4" holes. They are body weight placements that will not hold a fall. A rivet does not have to be drilled as deep as a bolt. A rivet hanger is simply a swaged wire loop for hanging on a rivet.
Keyhole hangers resemble a regular bolt hanger, except they have a key hole so they can be fitted over a bolt-stud.
thus corroborating Socal's comment (only diverging hole size).
Conflicting info.... Is PTPP drunk?
-So what's the best length??
-what hole size? I get the felling 17/64 is weird but heck! I don't know...
Cheers,
Guillaume
_________________________________
Socal, Thanks for the input!
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psychoredneck
May 1, 2004, 5:53 AM
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Rivets for granite:
5/16 dia
Grade 5
Coarse Thread
Machine bolt
Drill 17/64 hole (bits less likely to snap and less bolt mods)
Hurricane or old Rawl drill necessary
1 1/4 or 1 1/2 length w/ unthreaded section next to hex (whichever is shorter)
Chop off end to desired length with bolt cutters
Depending on type of rock, pre-grind tip or flatten with hammer on lead
Harder rock will require mods; softer rock will require no mods
Rivet should go in like a piton with solid hammer strikes
If it goes in too easy, it may be bad
If it goes in too tight and mushrooms and craters the hole, it may be bad
Placement depth:
1/4 = shorty = bodyweight
3/8 1/2 = standard = bomber, will hold a whipper
5/8 = max = superbomber, will hold a big whipper
Machine head rivets can be as strong or stronger than a 1/4 bolt
Machine head rivets can also be crap
Please refer to your trusty crap manual for details
Experience will only tell
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psychoredneck
May 1, 2004, 3:50 PM
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I hear that for replacement reasons, a 1/4 x 1 1/2 Rawl/Powers buttonhead bolt with two washers on it is better than a machine head and can be pulled. Buttonheads are also easier to place there are fewer factors involved in achieving a bomber placement. You can get buttonheads or order them from any decent hardware store. The two washers prevent a keyhole or rivet hanger from popping off of the rivet and protect the rock during removal of the bolt. Machine heads often break off meaning that the hole cannot be reused. Buttonheads can be removed easily with a tuning fork. Drill a 1/4 diameter hole for 1/4 bolts. An SDS or HSS bit will work. Think beyond tomorrow.
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boltdude
May 1, 2004, 11:15 PM
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Thanks psychoredneck -
For those trying to get them at the hardware store, the 1/4" x 1 1/2" split-shaft compression bolt (i.e. the standard all-around bolt for granite climbing from late '60s through mid '80s) is sold as: Powers Drive Round Head 1/4 x 1-1/2, Powers catalog number 03241. Not available in stainless (stainless steel is too soft to work). Not good for soft rock (won't compress, it'll carve out the rock as it's being pounded in).
Even 30 year old way rusted ones rarely break, they usually pull out fine. The buttonhead 1/4" split-shaft are the least likely of all 1/4" bolts to break at the surface when you pull them (except the rarely seen Diamond Tapers, since the bolt is so much better than the lead sleeve, they never break off at the surface).
Tuning forks are available through the ASCA, www.safeclimbing.org.
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galf
May 4, 2004, 6:33 AM
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Thanks to all,
I'll try to get powers splitshafts. 25$ for a 100.
Might be a silly question but...
Why two washers? one isn't enough?
Guillaume
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epic_ed
May 4, 2004, 7:22 AM
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One washer will flex too easily.
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grippedclimber
May 4, 2004, 12:53 PM
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That's great info but what's wrong with bathook holes? I think they are great fun and keep things exciting, not that rivets can't be very exciting. Hook holes are easier to drill, no hardware required and they keep the route clean. OK that's a odd statement. I guess they don't keep the route clean, drilling is drilling, but there is a time and a place for a hook hole.
The best hook holes are angled downwards a bit but not too much or the lip of the hole gets weak and can blow. If you drill at something like a 30 degree angle you get a nice bomber hook hole.
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psychoredneck
May 5, 2004, 5:18 AM
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Because one washer will not keep an RP keyhole hanger on the bolt when clipped with a biner; two washers will. Use the right size washer. 5/16", I think, but I am just a stupid redneck.
Nuke The World
Save Your Soul
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