|
|
|
|
quantum48
May 6, 2004, 12:09 AM
Post #1 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 2, 2004
Posts: 21
|
So here is the scoop, on June 6th I will be leaving for Denali National Park in support of an almost fully funded expedition up the Muldrow Glacier on McKinley. I will be going to help pack in ALL of the gear from Wonder Lake... wait it gets better. The 'leader" of this expedition has hiked up Mt Washington more times than I care to count (twice was enough for me) and just returned from Rainier where I assume he actually summited? Other than going top roping a hand full of times on ice and rock, that is the extent of his climbing experience and yes this trip is un-guided. The other two guys on the climbing team have even less experience from what I gather.
All I know is I know enough to know I don't know enough or have nearly enough experience to safely navigate the glaciers and ice falls of the North side of Denali. While shear technical climbing skill is not needed in abundance on the route they have chosen. Knowledge and experience in glacier travel and rescue are essential. The sick part is, this guy fully expects to take one lob a day into a crevass and I'm not quite sure he fully understands all that, that entails.
Now my situation comes into play, I've been having moral missgivings about supporting what many people would view here as a fools errand/suicide attempt and have made several attempts to put the point across of how serious of a undertaking this is. With little success. A big part of me is hoping the rangers in Talkeetna just laugh at this kid when he shows up to receive his permits. Which might happen and might not. Before anyone tries to say I'm blowing things out of proportion, my best friend taught this kid how to tie his first figure eight this past winter on one of those trips top roping.
I keep telling myself I'm just along for the ride, but I'm hoping this trip comes unravelled before it even gets to the base of the mountain. Any ones thoughts and opinions are more then welcome as I try to sort this out for myself.
Jason
P.S. Please feel free also to email or PM me with any info you might have on this route up the Muldrow Glacier.
|
|
|
|
|
sandbag
May 6, 2004, 12:13 AM
Post #2 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 12, 2003
Posts: 1443
|
Support them, but remember to be BEHIND them every step of the way. Reality is a cruel line to cross sometimes, but hey, people are going to do what they want to, no matter what. Just be careful. :?
|
|
|
|
|
fiend
May 6, 2004, 12:15 AM
Post #3 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 25, 2001
Posts: 3669
|
Didn't you answer your own question with every other statement in that post?
I'd bail and tell the kid that you want no part in his killing himself. With the amount of faith you have in him then I hope you like doing rescues if you decide to tag along anyways.
|
|
|
|
|
climbsomething
May 6, 2004, 12:26 AM
Post #4 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 30, 2002
Posts: 8588
|
First, I know nothing of alpine expeditions, having never been on one. I also know nothing of the permit process or this route.
BUT if you have this gut instinct that somebody who's only known how to tie a figure 8 for a few months could be a severe threat to anybody's safety on the trip, tattle on him. Yep. You and your friend who also know of the team's inexperience should contact the ranger's office in charge of permits and the expedition sponsors with a detailed, truthful account of the collective inexperience.
I remember reading a story about a climber who didn't belong on Denali. It was a pretty big event. A few years back, a Russian climber (whose name escapes me) tried climbing Denali in stout conditions in cheap cotton and nylon hiking wear a la Popular or Big Five sporting goods, and his gear included a flannel sleeping bag, the kind with little duckies printed on the inside liner. His flimsy tent collapsed on him under the weight of the snow and a nearby party saved him from certain death. In the process of damn near killing himself, he endangered another experienced team and cost them their summit bid... not to mention excreted all kinds of yummy wastes on their gear when he came to and thawed out in their tent. He was more experienced than your leader, too.
People who don't belong in the mountains are scarier to me than people who don't belong on 40-foot cliff faces.
Don't become a statistic or horror story. Rat him out.
|
|
|
|
|
cryder
May 6, 2004, 12:34 AM
Post #5 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 14, 2003
Posts: 391
|
I've never heard of this before, but it's clever as a last resort. You may not be able to stop him with arguments or reason... and even if you rat on him, he may find a less regulated place to go kill himself (there are plenty in stock). But whatever you do, dont sit idilly by and say nothing. Speak up like a friend.
- n -
|
|
|
|
|
fiend
May 6, 2004, 12:37 AM
Post #6 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 25, 2001
Posts: 3669
|
In reply to: Speak up like a friend.
And then pummel him with a heavy blunt object. Climbers with broken legs can't kill themselves on mountains they don't belong on ;)
|
|
|
|
|
climbsomething
May 6, 2004, 12:45 AM
Post #7 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 30, 2002
Posts: 8588
|
In reply to: I've never heard of this before, but it's clever as a last resort. You may not be able to stop him with arguments or reason... and even if you rat on him, he may find a less regulated place to go kill himself (there are plenty in stock). But whatever you do, dont sit idilly by and say nothing. Speak up like a friend. - n - |
|
|
|
|
micronut
May 6, 2004, 12:54 AM
Post #8 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2002
Posts: 1760
|
In reply to: I keep telling myself I'm just along for the ride,
The ride of your life, it sounds like. If you're o.k. with just leaving people to die out on the side of the mountain, then just cruise it. If you're not o.k. with that, then you might get pulled into an epic rescue situation that might cost you the ultimate price, just for a free trip to Alaska.
On the other hand, ignorance is bliss, and the kid might just make it. People woulda laughed at the Becky bros trying to grab the second ascent of Waddington, but they pulled it in style.
|
|
|
|
|
cryder
May 6, 2004, 1:17 AM
Post #9 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 14, 2003
Posts: 391
|
In reply to: In reply to: Speak up like a friend. And then pummel him with a heavy blunt object. Climbers with broken legs can't kill themselves on mountains they don't belong on ;)
Note to self: Share no tent with Fiend as climb leader. :D
|
|
|
|
|
fullahsiffur
May 6, 2004, 1:42 AM
Post #10 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 2, 2003
Posts: 376
|
I did Rainier and I heard from some of the guides that work there (the guides that run up and down Rainier three times per week) that McKinley is light years from Rainier in terms of stamina and smarts required. If this guy makes it to Camp 3 it will be a miracle. Depending on how he climbed Rainier, he only needed two days worth of food and supplies and no tent. Denali requires much, much more in terms of equipment, supplies, planning, etc.
Of course, he may be an ungodly talented climber, and he may survive. His team, though....
|
|
|
|
|
fullahsiffur
May 6, 2004, 1:44 AM
Post #11 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 2, 2003
Posts: 376
|
I forgot to mention something; crossing the McKinley river is sometimes considered the most dangerous part of the expedition, and getting supplies across it appear to be your job. Have fun.
|
|
|
|
|
quantum48
May 6, 2004, 2:06 AM
Post #12 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 2, 2004
Posts: 21
|
The ratting out has already happened (my best friend and climbing buddy did it a month or two ago, called the ranger station with some questions and informed them to keep an eye out for this kid) and I've asked about the permits more than a few times with little or no reply. My most recent justification for going along with this trip is while I have no first hand expreience with glacier rescues I can at least set up a z-pulley and done my fair share of pulling down on pigs and since it seemed apparent that nothing was going to stop this kid short of a beating, he would stand more a chance with the three of us there incase something happened. Though all I'm doing is setting myself up for an epic.
As far as friends go, I barely know this kid, climbed with him once and spoken with him on the phone a few times. He is smart, a quick learner, inteligent (might be debatable) and a good athlete. But by the simple idea of human compassion I owe him enough to stop this. Originally this was to be a guided trip which is why I agreed to go in the first place but it has slowly degraded to the current situation and getting worse by the minute. The Mckinley river is ragging and I'm well aware of it being the most dangerous part of the climb in many instances and this kid thinks it is no big deal. I also just heard about his mini epic on Rainier from my friend/co-worker who is his inlaw and if he makes choices like that on Mckinley he will kill himself.....
Anybody have the number for Talkeetna Ranger station!!???
|
|
|
|
|
happiegrrrl
May 6, 2004, 2:46 AM
Post #13 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 4660
|
First, I have to do the disclaimer - I'm just a beginner rock climber who is patiently (as best I can) waiting for others with experience to mentor me, and doing all the reading I can in the interim. I know that reading does NOT equate with or replace hands-on experience.
Okay.....my suggestion to you is to puruse Accidents in North American Mountaineering (any year should suffice). There you'll get detailed accounts of climbing gone wrong, entailing parties such as the one you refer to all the way to seasoned world-class climbers.
If you can't get through more than a few of the reports before realizing the situation you describe is a good scenario for next year's edition, my next suggestion is to understand that it is YOUR responsibility to say no to putting yourself in a dangerous situation. No one else's.
Again - I'm just an insatiable reader, but I did just finish Joe Simpson's "The Beckoning Silence." In it, he and his partner are about to embark on the climb that has been his dream since before he ever roped in, the Eiger.
They plan, prepare and travel to the site. They get themselves in shape for the climb ahead of time. Yet the day before the scheduled start, his partner changes his mind. He doesn't feel good about the climb, and he backs out.
He backs out on a good friend, whose technical experience he is very well aware of. He backs out with the full awareness he is crushing a lifelong dream. He backs out prepared to expect an emotional avalanche and possibly even the end of a friendship that he cherishes.
But .....he has weighed the situation, and at that moment, his life isn't worth the risk of his friends feelings, time and expenses. ( He makes the climb later on, and they make it through, although others died on the mountain, literally sailing through the air past them, but that's another story....)
You are not God, nor a superhero, and you cannot control another person. There is not going to be a write-up in the climbing magazines detailing your courageous rescue.
My last suggestion is to back out of the trip, and advise the rest of your party your reasons for doing so. Most likely the (more) inexperienced one is not going to have the wherewithal to continue his plans without partners.....
In reply to: Anybody have the number for Talkeetna Ranger station!!???
I would think an internet search would quickly get you this info, seems a little supurflous to request it here.....My guess is that either you're just "excited" because you've been projecting on this epic-to-be and not thinking on your own (not so good for someone who is fairly certain he'll be stepping up to the responsibility of a wilderness rescue situation).... or else just fanning some flames at RC for entertainment du jour.
|
|
|
|
|
fullahsiffur
May 6, 2004, 2:52 AM
Post #14 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 2, 2003
Posts: 376
|
By 'kid', what do you mean?
|
|
|
|
|
gottarock
May 6, 2004, 4:40 AM
Post #15 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 4, 2004
Posts: 129
|
Denali is said to be a monster of a mountain. I've heard that Everest can be more forgiving. One of my alpine-rock-ice mentors has been on the mountain twice and not summited. and he is the real deal. speaking of summiting, according to friends who just got back... no one has summited Rainier yet this year.
I've got a mere 10 days of glacier travel under my belt (Rainier, east and middle peaks of Mt. Olympus) and hardly remember tying a figure 8. bowlines, girthhitches, etc. glacier travel may include some climbing but is an entirely different animal. route finding is beyond tricky. a fall into a crevasse could entail a 3+ hour rescue. do these guys know any rescue techniques such as how to build a Z pulley?
Rainier unguided is not for amatures. Denali well... haven't been there myself but I've read and heard the stories... it has the potential to be a horror show.
So, heres a question... an attempt to summit Denali takes 21-28 days. do you want to spend that much time with these people?
|
|
|
|
|
climbsomething
May 6, 2004, 4:50 AM
Post #16 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 30, 2002
Posts: 8588
|
In reply to: The ratting out has already happened (my best friend and climbing buddy did it a month or two ago, called the ranger station with some questions and informed them to keep an eye out for this kid) and I've asked about the permits more than a few times with little or no reply.
Or, simply remove yourself, light a candle while they're up there, and pray...
|
|
|
|
|
quantum48
May 6, 2004, 1:31 PM
Post #17 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 2, 2004
Posts: 21
|
This "kid" is I believe 24, not too sure on that, since the guide fell through he (the kid) has drawn a clear line between what he is doing (climbing McKinley) and what we are doing (packing his gear in to McGonagall Pass) and any actual in formation on his climb has been hard to impossible to get out of him. When I found out that the climb was no longer guided I decided I was no longer interested in being in a climbing party and my two fellow climbers felt the same. That is when we offered to porter his gear (at this point I still had no idea this kid had as little experience as he has) and which brings us to this point as things come to light.
As far as Rainier is concerned I would not be surprised if this kid never registered and purchased the permit for the summit. All I know is that on Rainier he was caught in a storm for two or three days then says he reached the summit? (hear say on my part) Found the number for Talkeetna ranger station and will be giving them a call shortly.
|
|
|
|
|
shakylegs
May 6, 2004, 1:39 PM
Post #18 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2001
Posts: 4774
|
climbsomething, you weren't talking about the Korean climber, were you?
He called himself "Makalu" after the mountain. Apparently, he's a hero in his country, but a walking disaster on mountains.
He was 'coptered out along with Beck Weathers on Everest in '96.
|
|
|
|
|
flashsixteen
May 6, 2004, 2:26 PM
Post #19 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2002
Posts: 159
|
Get in touch with "mtngeo" I am sure he would have some advice and some input into the matter.
|
|
|
|
|
jkarns
May 6, 2004, 2:51 PM
Post #20 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 13, 2003
Posts: 542
|
Truth be told, this dude is not an exception. There are folks on Denali every year that most of us would consider on death missions. Some of them make it smoothly; some never come back. The rangers cannot stop anyone from being issued a permit; they can only dissuade someone from heading up.
So it sounds like he is planning on heading up solo?? (you and his other partners bailed) You also said that he plans to fall in many crevasses (a fair assumption). From what you said, it also sounds like he has very vague climbing plans. I'm being serious here: What else is going on in his life? Are you sure that this is not, literally, a suicide mission? It's happened before. Talk to his other friends and family. Is he always a risk-taker? Is this something new? Talk to him. Tell him that you don't understand his motivation for doing something that has a huge, huge risk of disaster. Be a consoling friend, don't yell at him or he'll just close up and become even more set on his plan. Maybe he just needs someone to actually listen to what's going on...
If he is insistant, ask about more detailed plans for his climb. What's his schedule? What is his plan if something goes wrong? Tell him that you want to be able to help when things get fouled up.
Before you proceed, I really think you need to consider if these actions are a manifestation of psychological issues.
|
|
|
|
|
bumblie
May 6, 2004, 5:48 PM
Post #21 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 18, 2003
Posts: 7629
|
Contact NOLS Alaska. I believe it's in Palmer. The route you are planning is the same one they take on their Denali course. Tell them what you're planning and what your experience is. Then ask their advice and take it!!!
They probably know more about that route than anyone. My guess is they'll tell you to forget about it.
It sounds like this "kid" is running on enthusiasm. On a month long expedition, experience is key.
In your first post you said you are "supporting" this trip. Does this mean you're not climbing the mountain also? If so, why do you want to travel 5000 miles to carry someone else's stuff 25 miles across soggy, bug infested tundra?
If this "kid" is gung-ho on Denali, he needs to get on with a guide and climb the standard "tourist" route.
|
|
|
|
|
quantum48
May 7, 2004, 4:30 AM
Post #22 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 2, 2004
Posts: 21
|
First of all I would like to thank each and every person who has made a post on this topic for their insight and mtngeo especially for taking the time to pm me personally.
I'd also like to clarify that there are six of us going to Alaska, three on the climbing team and three of us just to porter gear (and some of you may be asking why... it's Alaska damnit and even though it is soggy bug infested tundra I have several friends who have done the trek to McGonagall Pass and have said it is well worth it. Also should I stay climbing and fulfill my own ambitions I will have many hearvier loads over longer trails to carry out in the future.) The three of us who will be portering gear are meeting this coming week to discuss this at length and contact Chris (the kid) with our concerns and questions.
Thanks again to all.
Jason
|
|
|
|
|
powen
May 7, 2004, 6:52 AM
Post #23 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2003
Posts: 201
|
You should probably schedule a showing of the National Geographic documentary about Denali's Rangers and Rescue teams with your buddies. When you're done watching, think about whether the "leader" of this team has enough experience to really lead two other people up this mountain safely. What if they get into a serious problem and someone else has to help them? What if someone else dies while helping these guys when it could have been easily prevented or foreseen by someone with more experience (ie a professional guide). How culpable will you feel by enabling this kid to pursue this trip if someone dies because of his inexperience?
You want to gain experience hauling loads? Schlep loads for a real mountaineer, not the contemporary reincarnation of the doughboys...
I am a very cautious guy, and I have a buddy who is pretty daring in my eyes. If it weren't for him, I would have never started climbing at all. If it weren't for me, he probably would have tried some really stupid stuff by now (ie way over his head). Point is, we're great climbing partners that have learned to balance our goals and desires. If I have legitimate concerns, he listens and we make our decisions from there. We're honest about what we can and can't do, and we don't worry about the numbers game.
If this guy isn't honest about his inexperience, objective dangers, desires, inexperience, inexperience or possibly his inexperience, then DO NOT HELP HIM. If he can't be honest or reasoned with, he's either stupid or mental, or both.
Let me put it another way, even in my inexperience (see, I'm honest) I don't think I've heard of any alpinist "planning" on dropping into a crevasse unless it's for a rescue class...
|
|
|
|
|
bumblie
May 7, 2004, 1:09 PM
Post #24 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 18, 2003
Posts: 7629
|
One more thing. From McGonagall Pass (5000) to Karstens Ridge (11,000) there is no radio contact with the outside. While your team is negotiating the lower icefall (traversing under a huge hanging glacier), the Great Icefall and the hill of cracks they will be completely on their own. IMO getting through the icefalls is the most dangerous part of the climb.
|
|
|
|
|
sarcat
May 7, 2004, 7:32 PM
Post #25 of 48
(8497 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 1560
|
If you go make sure you get paid first.....
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
