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fracture
May 8, 2004, 8:44 PM
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PRC and the Horst stuff and whatnot all recommend linking redpoint projects from the top down, for various reasons, but mainly that you practice the moves higher on the route more than the ones lower on the route, which will stress-proof those engrams so that you can still perform the moves efficiently as you reach them in progressively more fatigued stages, and so on.
I've not really projected this way before, beyond just trying moves extra times when it is convenient (for example, if it's near the top of the route (and thus topropable), easily down-fallable to, or if the route can be easily top roped). It seems like a good idea, but also seems potentially inconvienent in a lot of cases.
So the question is: how many of you have worked projects this way---doing progessively longer links to the top (instead of from the bottom). On routes which are not easily top-roped, how do you get to the point you want to link from? (stick clip? climb, but taking on every bolt? something else?) Have these tactics worked better for you (in terms of time taken to redpoint)?
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superfox
May 8, 2004, 9:24 PM
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That makes a lot of sense, although I don't work projects that way. It just seems like if you go to the crag, set up a toprope, jug up halfway, and then do it, it just seems like a wasted attempt. I would feel like I basically wasted that day by wasting my good burn only trying the top half. If I try it from the bottom, I will either fall off, or I will make it. Trying it from the top means that I will either fall off, or will make it to the top, but not an actual redpoint. I think it is much more practical, and almost as effective, to just work it from the bottom, and then just try the route from where you fell. That way, you work the entire route equally, and you will still know how to do the top while pumped sense you will be pumped when you try it again.
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b_fost
May 8, 2004, 9:29 PM
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i agree with the previous poster. theoretically, that method makes great sense. but it's just not practical to jug halfway or more up a route to practice the top moves.
if that way was more practical, i bet we'd see a lot more of it at the crags.
oh yeah, and overhanging routes and such would be hard to apply that method to.
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chitlinsconcarne
May 8, 2004, 11:35 PM
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I've used the top down method of dialing in a series of moves on a few different routes and it has been effective, but isn't something I do all that often. Basically, one gets to the top by whatever means is most efficient. Sometimes that means using a long cheater to clip as high as possible, then yarding up or just clipping your way up to the area that one wants to work, hanging at each draw. However it happens, the key for me is to get in postion and work the moves while feeling strong, rehearsing them with strong movement rather than thrutching while tired.
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bouldering-bumm
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May 8, 2004, 11:39 PM
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Dont know why that wouldnt work...unless you are on overhang, and you would get a big harness sore.
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pawilkes
May 9, 2004, 1:20 AM
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i've been climbing for a few years but i rarely go to an area so much that i have a project taht i try time after time after time, so i can't really put this in an outdoor context. however, i can relate this to climbing inside. when i was climbing at the gym 3x a week for three months i couldn't not do the same routes over and over and when i worked a harder one i would have the bottom dialed but would get tired towards the top. working a hard section fresh will help you gain confidence and will likely let you find a more efficent way to get through the sequence.
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pushsendnorcal
May 9, 2004, 3:38 AM
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I go bolt to bolt and work every move and make an attempt to find the easiest possible way to do the move/s. I make sure I do this all in one set, spending around 45min. After that I start working redpoint burns making an attempt to take away my falls (from whatever to 1 fall). After I have done the route in two parts. I start pushing myself so that my one fall gets closer and closer to the ending draws.
Ex- Squeal Like a Pig @ Pipedream cave in Maple
My first go I spent close to 45min on it. I did the main boulder problem 5times to make sure I know what I was doing. I learned where my feet would go for every single move on the route. I made sure I knew where my chalk spots were, where my main rests were. After that I did the route 3rd go.
When I am coaching my team I notice that when one of the kids starts to get pumped they start making critical mistakes with their feet (attempting to fix their mistakes) which makes them fall. Always make sure you memorize where your feet go for every move. On redpoint burns you should flow, never ever stall.
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the_antoon
May 9, 2004, 5:14 AM
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can't say I've ever done it...but it sounds like it would be real good to do. I think i might try it.
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fracture
May 9, 2004, 1:20 PM
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In reply to: I start pushing myself so that my one fall gets closer and closer to the ending draws.
This is linking bottom-up.
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jt512
May 10, 2004, 3:28 AM
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In reply to: PRC and the Horst stuff and whatnot all recommend linking redpoint projects from the top down, for various reasons, but mainly that you practice the moves higher on the route more than the ones lower on the route, which will stress-proof those engrams so that you can still perform the moves efficiently as you reach them in progressively more fatigued stages, and so on.
"...stress-proof the engrams..." They must think they sell more books talking like that. Why don't they say "learn them better, so you can do them when you're tired." Sheesh.
In reply to: On routes which are not easily top-roped, how do you get to the point you want to link from? (stick clip? climb, but taking on every bolt? something else?)
Yes. Basically, climb, resting on the rope as often as necessary to ensure that you are not fatigued when you get to the section you want to work, stick-clipping en route if necessary. On the way up, I might work a sequence once or twice, if I can do so without getting fatigued. Over a number of sessions you'll end up learning much of the route just by handogging your way up to the higher sections, and you'll naturally start to link together some of the lower sequences. If you time it well, by the time you get the higher sections wired, you'll also have learned the lower sections. It's very efficient.
I have a partner who stubbornly refuses to work top-down, with predictable results. He spends weeks working the climb ground-up to the crux, at which point he's too tired too effictively work the crux. Thus it takes him more runs than necessary to work out the crux. When he's finally gotten the crux worked out, he spends many more unnecessary ground-up attempts falling on easier moves above the crux, which he's never been on because, until this point, he could never get past the crux. Had he worked top-down, he'd have had the moves wired, and could probably redpoint in 1 or two tries after finally unlocking the crux.
-Jay
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ikefromla
May 10, 2004, 5:02 AM
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umm. yeah. it's called "projecting" something. um. you, like, work out the moves and "take" when necessary. and, uh, recover before attempting the crux. and yeah, that's how you do it. sometimes I work crux moves repeatedly to make sure i wire them. sometimes i also climbe the top section repeatedly, WHILE pumped, to make sure i'll send when i get past the crux. I have employed this strategy recently by wiring my project from the crux to the anchors like nobody's business.
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alpnclmbr1
May 10, 2004, 5:16 AM
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I would question the working the top of the route fresh beta.
Typically I tend to use different less powerful beta on an enduro finish then I would use if I wasn't pumped. I like the idea of wiring the start through to the crux and let adrenaline do the rest. No need to waste time wiring all of the route, if you do not have to.
Engrams: When you are wiring a sequence of moves, your emotional state at the time gets wired in with the move beta. Practicing the moves fresh would associate a more positive state of mind.
Side note: taking a long break from an activity is supposed to clean up the associated noise attached to a movement engram.
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kalcario
May 10, 2004, 5:38 AM
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*Engrams: When you are wiring a sequence of moves, your emotional state at the time gets wired in with the move beta. Practicing the moves fresh would associate a more positive state of mind.
Side note: taking a long break from an activity is supposed to clean up the associated noise attached to a movement engram.*
Side-side note: Only applies if you're emotionally unstable to begin with
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bandidopeco
May 10, 2004, 6:19 AM
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the theory behind rehearsing a route from the top down is that you are less coordinated when you are tired, and thus gain less-coordinated engrams when you practice them while pumped. by working a crux fresh you engrane good movements, not sloppy ones.
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kalcario
May 10, 2004, 6:29 AM
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*you are less coordinated when you are tired, and thus gain less-coordinated engrams when you practice them while pumped.*
I find it's better to practice the moves when you're tired because if you can do them when you're tired, you know you can do them when you're fresh. what is the point of "practicing" the moves when you're fresh, you might as well just be trying to send
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bustloose
May 10, 2004, 2:56 PM
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good greif. are we going to the lab, or going climbing? if you let a book tell you how to climb then you are in trouble.
if you find that top down works for you, then do it. if you find that bottom up works for you, then perhaps stick with that. at least try a few options before you figure out what helps you send. i tried top-down and it really didn't do anything for me, so i abandoned it.
personally, the first time on the route, i hang on each bolt and have a good look around for holds and to remember the position from the moves i just did. you do every move fairly fresh and have time to check out the options. if i think i can send send it in a few tries then i try to send. i always go to the top if i come off. if i know it will be harder than a couple of tries, then i take before i feel like i might pump off. shake for a bit and keep climbing.
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fracture
May 10, 2004, 3:50 PM
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In reply to: I would question the working the top of the route fresh beta. Typically I tend to use different less powerful beta on an enduro finish then I would use if I wasn't pumped. I like the idea of wiring the start through to the crux and let adrenaline do the rest. No need to waste time wiring all of the route, if you do not have to.
Personally I find that as I get more pumped, if I'm doing moves which I don't have wired, my efficiency goes to crap, and I start using way more power than I need.
Obviously this is an individual thing though... (and that's probably something I need to work on for onsighting).
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axewielder
May 10, 2004, 6:35 PM
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In reply to: That makes a lot of sense, although I don't work projects that way. It just seems like if you go to the crag, set up a toprope, jug up halfway, and then do it, it just seems like a wasted attempt. I would feel like I basically wasted that day by wasting my good burn only trying the top half. If I try it from the bottom, I will either fall off, or I will make it. Trying it from the top means that I will either fall off, or will make it to the top, but not an actual redpoint. I think it is much more practical, and almost as effective, to just work it from the bottom, and then just try the route from where you fell. That way, you work the entire route equally, and you will still know how to do the top while pumped sense you will be pumped when you try it again.
you owe me 50 cents, ned
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old_apple_juice
May 10, 2004, 11:30 PM
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Substitute water for coffee. Dark, thick coffee...with grinds in it.
After a while your body will adapt to the diuretic properties, trust me.
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