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corey


May 13, 2004, 10:29 AM
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There is a distinct difference between "not expecting" to see your gear again, and being the person who TAKES it. Please recognize this difference.

Attempting to apply the argument that something "has been going on since the beginning of climbing" is, well, I won't say it, because it's just not nice words. There are many things that USED to go on for decades or centuries that were or still are just plain wrong. Please re-examine your position and apply a valid, logical argument to support it.

Stealing is stealing, there is no gray area, as much as some would like there to be. Much of the world IS, in fact, black and white, regarding "right" and "wrong" where other people besides one's self is involved.

This issue has absolutely nothing to do with climbing, it just happens to also occur in within the climbing arena. Climbers are no different than any other person, aside from the fact that the move vertically on earth, as well as horizontally. No more or less moral or ethical. No better or worse understanding of "life" or the meaning of it. A person's values permiate everything they do in life.

A similar event happened in the Red a few months ago where draws were left on a route and removed by an unknown person. Through much discussion and arguing on redriverclimbing.com, the draws were eventually returned to the top of the route and retrieved by the owner. Does returning the draws in that case give the person who took them some "moral credibility"? Hell no, because the gear should not have been removed in the first place.

Honor is in the details. The "why" is infinitely more important than the "what".


mackavus


May 13, 2004, 11:32 AM
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But you knew they were climbing their you saw them, you made the effort thinking they bailed you are a theif.

End of story

Ok. What drives me nuts about that last post philly, is that line right there. Where the hell deos he say that he even saw who was on the route???

In reply to:
Stealing is stealing, there is no gray area, as much as some would like there to be. Much of the world IS, in fact, black and white, regarding "right" and "wrong" where other people besides one's self is involved.

No gray area.... stealing is stealing??? Ask your local police what the definition of "abandoned property" is.

Corey,

You made a few good points, but one thing that bothers me is that you said "This issue has absolutely nothing to do with climbing, it just happens to also occur in within the climbing arena." I could not disagree more. I think that the specific details that make up the lifestyle and sport of climbing create situations that you do not often run into in everyday life, specifically, this one. Also, "ethics" and "morals" are touchy issues all over the globe, in everyday life, and in our world of rock climbing. These two words mean something a little different to everyone on the planet. What "should" and/or " what "should not" be done will be a question untill the end of time, especially in rock climbing. With bolts, hammers, chipping, cleaning, chopping, etc. where does it end? There will always be a dividing line somewhat between those who think that and those who think this.

That said I would like to explain my position a little better:

Fixed Gear: depends... a nut in the corner of a roof 280 feet up that was obviously left there on purpose... stays. That nut stuck in the 5.5 start to Beginner's Delight in the Gunks... free to whomever can get it out.

Draws on a proj... well they stay. Leaver biners however are frickin' mine.

A rap rig that someone had to make to bail off due to rain in an area where it rains heavily and frequently? Well I nab that stuff, and if there is no one in the parking lot or around at all... and they dont have packs at the base or any other sign that they will be returning... I claim it as my own and would expect anyone else to do the same thing if I had left this same config.

I don't feel that claiming booty is stealing. I really don't. In fact, there are at least 2 climbing books that I can think of that actually have sections on booty. So someone, besides us two nuck futs as someone put it, feels the same way we do. I dont feel that you can bail, and go for pizza... then hike back up to the cliff 4 hours later... and expect to get your gear. Furthermore, I would think you to be very silly if you were pissed off that is wasn't there.

Peace


elcapinyoazz


May 13, 2004, 11:38 AM
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You whiny azz jokers callin' this bro a theif need to educate yourself on the unwritten "way of the climber".

When in the valley, the first thing I do after a mid-May or Oct storm is take a run up either the Arches or Nutcracker to collect some booty. I've bailed off routes I either couldn't complete because they were too hard, or because I was sketched, or because the weather turned bad. I KNEW I would not get that gear back so I left the cheapest pieces I could build safe stations out of and rapped off as many natural features as possible leaving only slings. I would NEVER bail and leave an aid pitch half-full of gear unless my partner had just broken bones or been hit in the melon with rockfall. I mean shizzle ma nizzle, you gotta rap right by the gear anyway...wtf? Some points:

1. THE BAIL PARTY LEFT TOWN....no longer there. Not "waiting out the weather" or "getting a bite to eat". They split and went home because they were too sketched to down-aid in the rain. Boo hoo. It's INDEX for christsakes, rain is a 50/50 proposition on a good day.

2. NO REASON TO LEAVE THAT MUCH GEAR....could have set a 3 piece station and cleaned the gear on rap.

3. WEATHER NOT DANGEROUS....you very very rarely see lighting in the PNW. High on a peak, maybe. I lived in the PNW for years and saw lighting 2 times....as in 2 bolts in 4 years. It was clearly not freezing rain either. The bail party were soft chachis with more money than balls.

You whiners need to spend some time living the life and learning the code.


mackavus


May 13, 2004, 11:56 AM
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This brother speaks the truuuff!


funk29


May 13, 2004, 12:16 PM
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Vertas


largebarge


May 13, 2004, 12:29 PM
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Kudos to Funk for cleaning up someone's litter. Doesn't matter why or who left it there, they left it there. They rescinded ownership of it, and thus picking it up is not, by any stretch of the imagination, stealing.


stevep


May 13, 2004, 12:29 PM
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As far as the definitions of stealing and abandoned property go, I don't thinking grabbing gear a short time after it was left would qualify it as abandoned. For something to be abandoned, there would have to be a reasonable expectation that it is not going to be retreived. To me at least, this means days, not hours.
I've certainly collected booty off of climbs, but I'm pretty sure most of it had been there for some time. I'd feel a little bit strange (perhaps like I was stealing) if I went up immediately after somebody, without at least giving them a day to return and recover it. I mean for all you know, maybe in addition to the weather, somebody in that party did have some type of emergency that precluded them from spending the time to get the stuff.
Going up to get it right away does strike me as a little vulture-like, but I guess to each his own.


vertical_reality


May 13, 2004, 12:39 PM
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Re: Rain+ Seattle "climber"=Bootie! [In reply to]
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Kudos to Funk for cleaning up someone's litter. Doesn't matter why or who left it there, they left it there. They rescinded ownership of it, and thus picking it up is not, by any stretch of the imagination, stealing.

The next time you park your car you won't mind if I take it then will you? If you left it there then you rescinded ownership of it right?


the_pirate


May 13, 2004, 12:55 PM
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Ask your local police what the definition of "abandoned property" is.

I would like to think that the brotherhood of climbers is more respectful of each other than is the general riff-raff of society. Back when I first started climbing, I was taught that it was common courtesy to give someone 24 hours to come back for gear abandoned on a route. While this is possible at smaller local crags, I quickly learned that there are a lot of vultures in the world. Climbing world included.

Bootying gear that you come across while climbing is one thing. Going looking for gear right after someone bails is being a vulture. While there may be nothing illegal in doing this, it is not the highest moral ground you could be taking.

If I bail from a route, I do not expect to see that gear ever again, there are far too many vultures in the world. However, I would come back to check, and if someone were to return it, they would be rewarded. Any time that I have bootied gear, I have always made it known to the locals that I found gear and give someone a chance to come foreward to say what it was that they lost. You should at least try.

So, spout up and down if you will about abandoned property, but the fact is, you are more on the side of bad than the side of good. Think how happy you would be if someone returned your gear. It's real easy to make someone else feel that good.


the_pirate


May 13, 2004, 1:02 PM
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In reply to:
If the piece it their the next day grab it, post it.

Because every climber in the world reads the posts on Rockclimbing.com right? Booty gear has been around since climbing started.

Most areas have some sort of regional_climbing.com bullitin board. There are also kiosks in many parking areas, with regulations, maps, and such. It is really easy to give someone a chance to claim their gear.


grundlebug


May 13, 2004, 1:09 PM
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How do you know if something has been left for four hours rather than four days?


the_pirate


May 13, 2004, 1:27 PM
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How do you know if something has been left for four hours rather than four days?

you wait till you see it on a second day before you take it.


largebarge


May 13, 2004, 1:34 PM
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In reply to:
Kudos to Funk for cleaning up someone's litter. Doesn't matter why or who left it there, they left it there. They rescinded ownership of it, and thus picking it up is not, by any stretch of the imagination, stealing.

The next time you park your car you won't mind if I take it then will you? If you left it there then you rescinded ownership of it right?

Do you really think there is no difference between these two events?

The point people are trying to make when they say "you don't expect to get bail gear back" is that it is implicit that you are rescinding ownership of the gear. Leaving something behind for your own convenience is litter, and we all know that. If someone else finds it useful and wants to pick it up, good for them.
Furthermore, as long as I have been climbing, it has been understood among the "brotherhood of climbers" that gear left behind is booty, and free for the taking. Maybe we can and should change that understanding. Maybe that will happen because of discussions like this. Start labelling your gear with "if found, please return to (your name and address) when you leave it behind, and then for convenience sake you can leave your rack on the walls, and never have to finish anything if you get too tired, or wet.

Stay away from my car!


the_pirate


May 13, 2004, 1:40 PM
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The point people are trying to make when they say "you don't expect to get bail gear back" is that it is implicit that you are rescinding ownership of the gear.

Not so. If i park my car in a bad neighborhood with the windows down, I won't be surprised to come back to find my radio gone. That doesn't mean that I have rescinded my ownership of it.

I don't expect to get bail gear back because I know that there are gear vultures hovering over the crags, just like there are radio vultures hovering over the city,

Climbers should be looking out for other climbers. It is a sad fact that they aren't


fredbob


May 13, 2004, 1:41 PM
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In the end of all this you are still a theif ................End of story


Pretty harsh words, and pretty ill informed (imho). This subject was discussed to death a just last month about leaving gear on Fote Hog in Real Hidden Valley at Joshua Tree. Here is the link: http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=57826 [which makes me think this is a T2+]

And I note that vertical_reality's personal profile admits that: "I've only been climbing for a short time..."

If you bail and leave gear, it is booty. Plain and simple. It always has been and always will be.

(Please note we are not talking about sport route draws here. Sport climbing has its own "ethic" about this....)


Partner p_grandbois


May 13, 2004, 2:01 PM
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All the theifs with no ethics stick together it seems. Their is a gragient here, wait till next day at the very least otherwise you are a theif. He said in his original post that he went deliberately looking for gear. He knew it was raining, he said their were others climbing, he took advantage of those people who bailed and didn't have a chance to recover their gear, Funk you are a theif, plain and simple.
Picking up gear on a climb is different. He thought it out, knew that someone must have bailed and went, probably mere hours after, and stole their gear.

This is like if you went to a gym, left your watch, and an hour later someone see's it "YOINK" "uhhh abandoned property...uhh, mine now finders keepers" I DON"T THINK SO. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT. You stole and didn't post it somewhere so they could have it back, you are a Theif. And no I didn't mean RC.com their are a million places to post lost gear!!!


fredbob


May 13, 2004, 3:08 PM
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All the theifs [sic] with no ethics stick together it seems.....

Rather, it seems that all the "climbers" who have strong opinions concerning matters about which they lack any real knowledge or experience sound similarly shrill.

And I would be very careful questioning the ethics of people you don't know.


bustloose


May 13, 2004, 3:20 PM
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you'd be carefull questioning the ethics of people you don't know???? get real 'dude' he put up a post telling all how great he is for having waited in the rain for people to leave gear behind and then went and stole it. you really need to be carefull questioning his ethics???

lets make things clear. if i bail off a route becuase i haven't got the skill to finish the pitch, and leave behind a rap anchor, then no, i don't expect to get that gear back. if someone works for an hour on a peice and can't retreive it, and you manage to unstick it days later, fine.

theses folks backed of the first pitch of a route, in the rain. common fucking courtesy says that you give them a day to come and get it back, not an hour. and if you come back in 3 days and someone else took it, at least you had the morals to leave it behind.

rest assured that if i had seen you pull that shit at my crag, you would not have left with that gear. (and for god's sake, no i am not threatening him)

and really. it's not THAT hard to try and return recovered gear. i see notes all the time at gyms and carparks about forgotten shoes and watches and jackets. people who are not spineless theives return found property, it's that easy.


bigwalling


May 13, 2004, 3:29 PM
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You people have to be fucking with me. He wallked along the base in a rain strom and saw some bail gear, and climbed up and got it. Please put a bullet in your head if you think what he did was wrong. I don't know how much longer I can take this site.


bustloose


May 13, 2004, 3:36 PM
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shit dude, i don't how much longer i can take this site either... read, then post...

In reply to:
and I said to Jim, Iím going to run over and see if any one left gear.

they went looking for bail gear because it started raining. THAT does not equate to gear left behind and given up on.

fuck, how many times and how many different people have to draw this line before you cheapskates get it?

fuck am i ever glad i don't climb anywhere near you chumps.


bigwalling


May 13, 2004, 3:48 PM
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Have you climbed the route? If you haven't you should shut the fuck up. I have climbed it in pouring rain! Anyone who bails from it likely doesn't have the intention to go back for gear, because you stay pretty dry in the rain and it doesn't take that long to climb.


stevep


May 13, 2004, 3:49 PM
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I'm with bustloose on this on one. There's a significant difference between found gear an unknown amount of time later and snagging stuff right after somebody has pulled a rapid escape.
If your values and climbing experience don't let you see that difference, so be it. But there is a difference.


elcapinyoazz


May 13, 2004, 3:50 PM
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I've climbed behind several parties in Yos on Central Pillar, Nutcracker, East Butt EC, Arches, Serenity/sons, etc that left gear they either couldn't clean or overlooked or spaced out on or whatever, where me or my partner were able to clean it. I've given it back to them either at the top or at a shared belay or in C4. EVERY TIME.

What you apparent youngsters seem to be missing out on here is this:

This party bailed. The party did not have to leave the gear. In fact there is NO GOOD REASON to have left that gear in place. They were either scared, lazy, or unskilled. They did not leave any kind of note at the base saying they were going to retrieve it tomorrow, they did nothing to indicate that it was anything other than abandoned bail gear. And YES IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO INDICATE THAT IT IS NOT BOOTY. (Someone could have been injured and I'll grant that as a special case where taking the gear would not be right, but bro who bootied the gear would have heard the commotion of helicopter evac or seen blood at the base, heard the screams,etc).

If they were scared, they should have down-aided. Every piece had held them thus far (and we're talking about an EASY aid route) and there was no reason to expect that the pieces would not hold them down aiding.

If they were lazy...well too f'in bad. That amounts to litter and becomes instant free game.

If they were unskilled and didn't want to continue in the rain out of fear (which I don't understand...it's just rain) they should have down aided or built a rap anchor and cleaned the ptich on rap.


This in no way is the same as leaving your car in a bad neighborhood. People don't often drive a car somewhere and never come back for it. This is in no way like someone stealing your watch in the gym. Watches are often dropped or laid about in gyms and it is reasonable to expect that the person did not leave it there knowingly.

These people left this gear knowingly in place, for no good reason, with nothing to indicate it was a special situation or that they would be back for it anytime soon. Lazy, unskilled, climbing beyond ability, too much dough and not enough know.

And to the hardman who said that he would not allow that at his crag I'll say this: Unless you knew the party who bailed personally and could give me their phone number, you'd be pulling a #4 camalot out of your azz and picking up teeth off the ground before you stopped me from leaving with that gear. It's fun to be a tough guy over a computer screen. I've yet to find anyone who walked the talk in the real world.


michael_layton


May 13, 2004, 3:56 PM
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If he didn't grab it someone else would.
I hope you guys don't ever need to be rescued at sea cuz your boat belongs to whoever saved your ass.
Thus, if you bail you've left gear. Never expect to get it back.
1. You don't deserve it back.
2. I would give it back if I the owner asked for it.
3. If you expect to have people go get your gear for you, hire a guide.
4. You'd have to be and idiot to not tell the difference between a project, or fixed lines, etc...and a piece that was left to bail or the team was unable to remove.

Call me a thief, I'll call you a f#%ckin' p*ssy for bailing in the 1st place. Accept your shame.
-Mike


valeberga


May 13, 2004, 3:56 PM
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Wait a second... those was my f'in gear up there you little punkass! I am gonna find you and make hamburger out of your legs with the two largest cams you stole!! :twisted: :twisted: You better leave town buddy!!!




Not really, but...




I mean, that could compromise the functionality of the cams...

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