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Hammering vs stick clipping, adding new bolts.
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twoliter


Jun 8, 2004, 3:04 PM
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Hammering vs stick clipping, adding new bolts.
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This last saturday I solo aided the West Face of Monkey Face (smith rocks) and was faced with a bit of a delima. On the third pitch about 12' of the bolt ladder is gone, I considered trying to get it clean but change my mind as soon as I looked down at the last four 1/4 inch bolts and decided to just stick clip it. Am I still a hard man even though I pack a stick clip (aid only)?

And how replacing the long gone bolts? That pitch is suposed to be a clip up, do I need some type of aproval or consensus to do this?

And how the h*ll did mice get into a cave 400' off the deck?


b_fost


Jun 8, 2004, 3:08 PM
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And how the h*ll did mice get into a cave 400' off the deck?


i put them there. practical joke...they never knew what hit em


lambone


Jun 8, 2004, 3:55 PM
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Wow, bolts gone on Monkey Face, that's a classic route...

Somebuddy musta took a whipper and ripped 'em out I guess?

Have you ever bolted anything before? If not, my suggestion would be to leave the re-bolting to someone with some experience. It is a very popular route and will get done soon enough.

My second suggestion would be to post this same topic over at:
CascadeClimbers.com
...in the rock climbing forum and get their input. There are many longtime Smith climbers over there who might have some good input on this.

My personal opinion is that the bolts should be the same type as the origionals, 1/4 or whatever and use the same hole if possible, if not the old hole should be patched properly.

And regarding cheat sticks, I ussualy bring one brcause i'd rather cheat past a section then nail it if I can't get it clean...


abalch


Jun 8, 2004, 4:04 PM
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Re: Hammering vs stick clipping, adding new bolts. [In reply to]
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If you haven't already, wander over to
http://www.smithrock.com/flash/routeupdates/index.html
and see if someone has submitted a report for that yet. If not, mail the website at
mailto:climb@smithrock.com
That will put it in a list with other problem routes, and some one of the wonderful "smith fairies" will try to get right on that, unless of course, consensus has decided that those bolts aren't needed anymore.

Unless you are skilled at bolting, I don't think you should try to rebolt this pitch, or you run the risk of messing up a classic route.


epic_ed


Jun 8, 2004, 4:09 PM
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Good input from Matt. Similar stuff happens on aid routes all over the place. My experience has been that unless you are prepared to replace the fixed gear with similar gear that was placed by the FA party, you need to find a way to work around it, or bail. In this case stick-clipping past it is the best form for continuing upward progress.

Copperhead and others have indicated a good rule of thumb for replacing fixed pro: do so only with gear that maintains the original integrity and spirit of the climb when ever possible.

Ed


lambone


Jun 8, 2004, 5:07 PM
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But one Q was overlooked..."still" a hardman? I'm sure there are even extreme tiddlywinkers.

:lol: hahaha

yeah, I'm definately in the extreme tiddlywinker category!


twoliter


Jun 9, 2004, 11:03 AM
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Thanks for the advice on where to post and the ethics of replacement of fixed gear. I will leave the bolting to someone else. My only comment is it seems replacing ripped rivets with more rivets may not be the best way to preserve the route in the long run due to the quility of smith rock. By the way the route is the "West Face Aid Route".


epic_ed


Jun 9, 2004, 11:31 AM
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Depends on the type, quality, and purpose of the original rivet. For example, if the rivet in question was of the 1/4" variety and was being used for an anchor, it is generally accepted that those types of rivets/bolt are no longer standard for most anchors. A 3/8" bolt placed in the same hole (if possible) of the original pulled rivet would be an acceptible upgrade.

If the original rivet was used as a point of aid, then it should be replaced with a similar rivet -- one that would be just as scary/secure as those of the FA party experienced when they placed it. These days you can often replace a bolt/rivet of similar diameter but can upgrade the bolt/rivet in terms of quality of material so that it will last longer than the original fixed gear. Some of the old rivets would rust and become time bombs within a matter of years. You can buy/place 1/4" rivets today that have a much longer life cycle due to superior quality materials. The point is, you don't need to replace a 1/4" rivet with a 3/8" bolt for the sake of durability.

Ed


billcoe_


Jun 9, 2004, 12:33 PM
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My personal opinion is that the bolts should be the same type as the origionals, 1/4 or whatever and use the same hole if possible, if not the old hole should be patched properly.



Replace them 1/4" star dryins? I don't think you can even buy them any more. Please, just get some long 3/8 stainless wedge anchors and replace them don't ya think. Should be able to reuse the same hole by drilling it out to 3/8".

I heard those were gone last year, shows you how often the West Face gets done and they're still not replaced.


epic_ed


Jun 9, 2004, 12:56 PM
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Replace them 1/4" star dryins? I don't think you can even buy them any more. Please, just get some long 3/8 stainless wedge anchors and replace them don't ya think. Should be able to reuse the same hole by drilling it out to 3/8".

NO! No, no, no. That's my point in my post above. Those old Star drives are an inferior quality 1/4" bolt, but that doesn't mean that you should slam in a new SS 3/8" bolt in it's place. For an anchor? OK. But not as a point of aid in the middle of the route. You can replace an old 1/4" bolt or rivet with a wide variety of modern quality 1/4" rivets. Doing so maintains the original character of the route while still upgrading the durability of the piece being replaced.

Ed


epic_ed


Jun 9, 2004, 12:56 PM
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Replace them 1/4" star dryins? I don't think you can even buy them any more. Please, just get some long 3/8 stainless wedge anchors and replace them don't ya think. Should be able to reuse the same hole by drilling it out to 3/8".

NO! No, no, no. That's my point in my post above. Those old Star drives are an inferior quality 1/4" bolt, but that doesn't mean that you should slam in a new SS 3/8" bolt in it's place. For an anchor? OK. But not as a point of aid in the middle of the route. You can replace an old 1/4" bolt or rivet with a wide variety of modern quality 1/4" rivets. Doing so maintains the original character of the route while still upgrading the durability of the piece being replaced.

Ed


addiroids


Jun 9, 2004, 1:37 PM
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Good ethics brother Ed.


joshklingbeil


Jun 9, 2004, 1:45 PM
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Don't forget your Leaper hangers Ed. Why keep 1/4 inch junk in the wall and have it shear off and require a bolt new hole?


iamthewallress


Jun 9, 2004, 1:59 PM
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If the original rivet was used as a point of aid, then it should be replaced with a similar rivet -- one that would be just as scary/secure as those of the FA party experienced when they placed it. These days you can often replace a bolt/rivet of similar diameter but can upgrade the bolt/rivet in terms of quality of material so that it will last longer than the original fixed gear. Some of the old rivets would rust and become time bombs within a matter of years. You can buy/place 1/4" rivets today that have a much longer life cycle due to superior quality materials. The point is, you don't need to replace a 1/4" rivet with a 3/8" bolt for the sake of durability.

Ed

You state this like it's a rule rather than your opinion. A lot of people would disagree.

The logic...climbing a ladder of fixed gear is usually a mindless way to get across a blank section and start climbing rock feature again. Fresh rivets are pretty bomber, but degrade and need to be replaced much more quickly than bolts. The diciness that ensues over time is totally manufactured.

Do you think it's better to have to replace a ladder every 10-20 years or every 50 years? What is the impact of more frequent replacements? What is the impact of leaving junky fixed gear that blows out and gets replaced by someone who is clueless and desperate?

A big reason that people tend to use smaller items on FA's is that drilling 3/8" bolts into granite is grim, slow, expensive duty anyway. FA intent is worth consulting too.

See this thread:

http://www.supertopo.com/...tml?m=11358#msg11358


epic_ed


Jun 9, 2004, 2:03 PM
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Don't forget your Leaper hangers Ed. Why keep 1/4 inch junk in the wall and have it shear off and require a bolt new hole?

Correct. Those recalled hangers fall under the category of inferior quality equipment that should be replaced ASAP. No need to wait for those to fail before pulling/replacing them. I'm not even close to being an expert on this stuff, but within the past year have placed some bolts on a new route and took the time to talk with people like Cooperhead and Eric Sloan to get their input on what hardware should go in on new routes to ensure longevity and durability to future climbers. The ASCA site is a great resource for understanding and recognizing when and how to replace bolts:

http://www.safeclimbing.org/


epic_ed


Jun 9, 2004, 2:10 PM
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You state this like it's a rule rather than your opinion. A lot of people would disagree.

And boy, do they...

Yep. You're right. There are few hard and fast rules, but I think my comments reflect some general consensus for aid routes. But -- it's also well-established that local consensus is what matters most when rebolting and those standards can vary widely.

To answering your question, I'd rather replace a rivet ladder every 10 years and have an experience closer to the character of the FA-ist route than have a ladder that will with stand 50 years of repetitive use. The FA-ist motives for placing a smaller point of protection aren't really that important to me. Just my opinion.

Ed


iamthewallress


Jun 9, 2004, 2:14 PM
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But what you get after 50 years is 5 (or more) patched holes at the site of the original, doubled up bolts, or other random garbage on the route. I'd rather see the rock (vs. the fixed A0 hardware) most resemble what the FA encountered. We're talking about a ladder here...not a single point of pro on an A4+ hooking pitch.


iamthewallress


Jun 9, 2004, 2:20 PM
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...and took the time to talk with people like Cooperhead and Eric Sloan to get their input on what hardware should go in on new routes to ensure longevity and durability to future climbers.

And no doubt you got two pretty different points of view! :wink:


corvallis


Jun 10, 2004, 1:05 AM
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i have a question... im trying to learn aid but have no teachers but my self so, could you depending on the angle of the rock use a black diamond talon hook in the bolt hole? and just carry on with a hook move.


ullr


Jun 10, 2004, 3:05 AM
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But what you get after 50 years is 5 (or more) patched holes at the site of the original, doubled up bolts, or other random garbage on the route. I'd rather see the rock (vs. the fixed A0 hardware) most resemble what the FA encountered. We're talking about a ladder here...not a single point of pro on an A4+ hooking pitch.

Exactly.

How often do you see two or three shwagged out holes with hangerless bolts hanging out of them. All because three different people put in three wanker bolts, when one good one could have done the job.

In my opinion, the hole is drilled, the hanger is there for all to see. Mine as well have something long lasting in it.


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