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off_route
Jun 10, 2004, 4:25 AM
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Cassin cams are 29.95 at pagan gear, the same price as Rock Empire cams. I have never seen the Cassin ones myself so I would like opinions on them and how they compare to their cheap friends (pun intended) Off_Route
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rokshoxbkr19
Jun 10, 2004, 4:46 AM
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I recently tried to find the same info and came up empty handed. I can offer this: All cassin cams are rated to only 10KN which I don't think is acceptable. The Rock empire cams are awesome in the micro sizes (.25, .5 and .75) as well as the #1, #2 and #3 sizes. HOwever after that the cams become to narrow for their size and are somewhat off balanced but great for horizontals. I would recommend Rock Empire cams to the beginner.
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greenpartyclimber
Jun 10, 2004, 4:54 AM
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I know this isn't what you asked for, but I would recomend that you go ahead and invest in camalots. Though they are much more expensive, I think you'll find that eventually you will buy the better cams anyway and will end up leaving the original cheapies at home. If not they have a very good resale value, so most likely you could end up with less lost money than the cost of those cheap cams.
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euroford
Jun 10, 2004, 2:49 PM
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though i also wholeheartidly agree on racking up with camalots, for a kick ass cam in a price that fits in between the discount stuff and the camalots look at the DMM's, super high quality pieces, very light, nice expansion range, and an excellent value.
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munckee
Jun 10, 2004, 3:00 PM
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In reply to: I know this isn't what you asked for, but I would recomend that you go ahead and invest in camalots. Though they are much more expensive, I think you'll find that eventually you will buy the better cams anyway and will end up leaving the original cheapies at home. If not they have a very good resale value, so most likely you could end up with less lost money than the cost of those cheap cams. :roll: Sorry, I'm going to have to whole-heartedly disagree with this. IMO, camalots are extremely over-rated. They're a good, solid piece, but they're not the end-all and be-all. They're expensive (considerably more so than other "top end" cams) and quite heavy. Will buying camalots over cassins or rock empires make him a better climber or get him up something that he otherwise couldn't climb...no. It's clear he's just starting a rack. Why dump a ton of money when he can get something that will do the same job for a lot less? Later down the line, once he's had time to learn what he likes, then he can invest in expensive cams if he thinks its necessary. By that time, he'll probably want to double up anyway. offroute - I've heard good things about the RE's, but people do say that the two largest sizes are tough to deal with. Perhaps buy the smaller ones and then larger cams of another brand (the cassins maybe?). Buy what you can afford now. IMO, you're far better off stretching X dollars to get as many pieces as possible rather than buying fewer expensive pieces. They'll get the job done and you'll be less likely to find yourself halfway up a route without the right piece. Just my opinion, I'm sure others will disagree.
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crazygirl
Jun 10, 2004, 3:06 PM
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Registered: Aug 27, 2003
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i bought a few cassin cams, but ended up returning them. (unused, of course, didn't even open the pakage) they didn't feel right - heavy, sharp edges, the stem was too short to be comfortable to place, and didn't look like something i would want to fall on. rock empire is ok, if you want to double up on some cams.
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nheston
Jun 10, 2004, 3:24 PM
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I know nothing of cassin cams but I have both camalots and rock empire robots on my rack. I agree with what others have been telling you about the two largest size RE cams. The camming units are not widely enough spaced and will walk. I don't use them any more. For a large cam I reccommend that you buy something with a center shaft, instead of the double shafts like the robots. Cammalots are great, but others will do. A cheaper center shaft cam is acme cams. If I were you however, I would get cammalots for my larger cams. Smaller size robots are light weight, light price and really good cams. In conclusion...the rock empire robots are great cams up to #3. Want larger cams, then buy center shaft.
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cryder
Jun 10, 2004, 3:26 PM
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Hi - I have used the Robots for a bit now, and can offer some limited advice. My .02: 1) Yes, they are good cams. They do the job they were designed for. No, they are not camalots... but yes, they work great. The U-stem does leave something to be desired because the trigger can be harder to get to when placed deep in a crack and you have better things to do like actually climb. But overall I am very very happy with mine. They are very well built. They also have sewn spectra slings on them. 2) Gear express was running an offer them - I think it was 5 cams for $130 or so. That is a helluva deal for someone starting to build a rack. 3) You may end up getting better cams in the future... so? They can make for nice seconds in a rack. Also, I would weep less bitterly if I had to leave one of those behind while retreating then leaving an $60 camalot. 4) This has been talked to death lately, but the double-axle patent for BD expired. It would be reasonable to expect that there will some proliferation of that technology... so starting out with an inexpensive set of cams to "get you by" may pay dividends in a few months. Like it or not, climbers are brand centric, and group think is a collective strong point. If we were football fans we would be having this convesation over who is the one true king of beers. "Bahhhh bahhhh.... camalots... baahhhh bahhh... camalots GOOD... bahhh bhaaha... everything else is EVIL!!!... bahhha". Its ok to be pragmatic and use something different. I wouldn't call your choice of cams salvific. Get what works for where you are at. - n -
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crazygirl
Jun 10, 2004, 3:45 PM
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since we are on the subject, i have a few clog cams. i used to think there were as good as metolius, until i fell on one of them, and while the placement was good, it didn't hold. i don't like to use them anymore.
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trenchdigger
Jun 10, 2004, 3:53 PM
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A few notes about the Cassin Joss cams... I bought a set from Sierra Trading Post and like them so far. Each time I've placed one, it felt very solid. They seem to walk less easily than other cams I've tried. Small sizes are rated at 10kN and larger sizes are rated at 12kN. And the bottom line - they're cheap. The drawbacks I've noticed are that the smallest two in the set are pretty bulky despite their relatively thin crack size. I have not yet placed the largest one of the set, but the second largest seemed stable in the less-than-perfect placement I left it in. The mid sizes place beautifully and have been bomber pieces for me. BTW, SierraTradingPost.com has these cams also for about the same price. Watch for a sale - you never know, they may get even cheaper. ~Adam~
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joneiche
Jun 10, 2004, 4:12 PM
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Registered: Oct 25, 2002
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another option would be ocun metal jacks. they are an inexpensive relativly high quality cam. I've only placed a few but they are a comparable single stem unit to RE. Also, forged friends are classic pieces that are super durable, super light and at $35 you can't go wrong. Yeah they get tangled up with each other a bit and need to be tied off to be placed in horizontals, but they have served me great. Also if you buy more than 3 pieces from gearexpress.com you get 10% off the cams.
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off_route
Jun 10, 2004, 6:27 PM
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Thanks for the replies thus far. As much as I would like the expansion range of the holy camalot if I can buy two of another cam for the same $$ I will, for now at least. Later when I get more cam intensive I might go for camalots. My rack now consists of 2 sets of nuts, & 1 set of hexes. So I am begining to look at cams. I probably should wait a while though since my credit card is still smoking from the friction of constant swiping! :D Cassins are rated to 10KN??!! :shock: I've got a biner that I could rack with one of them in the open position and they'd be a good match. Perhaps I will stay away from them. Thanks for the tip on forged friends, for $35 they have a good rep, I'll have to look at them. Also I hope with BD's patent expiring all the old models from the other manufacturers will go on sale. (drooling and rubbing hands with anticipation). Off_Route
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euroford
Jun 10, 2004, 8:55 PM
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i did a bit of research in another thread about the DMM cams vs. forged friends. they are both built by wild country (i'm not sure where they seperate, but dmm and wc are essentially the same company) and are basicly the same except for a couple minor and a couple significant diffrences. they both use the same cams, have the same sizes and same range. reportably (though i have not compaired or measured) the dmm's have a slightly narrower head width in sizes 3-4 though not so much to be a problem, they are still quite stable for a large cam and are better than many other brands. obviously the forged friends require a gunks tie off in a horizontal, while the quite flexable ustems on dmm's work very well in horizontals without additional screwing around. some sizes of wc's are lighter than dmm's and some are vice-versa. overall however dmm's as a full set are lighter than forged friends (just barely!) dmm's have extendable doubled slings forged friends are a bit cheaper. if you buy them in sets at gearxpress the dmms come to about $38 and the FF about $31. okay, well anyways, i'll stop being a dmm fanboy now, i just find them to be a good product at a nice value, so i thought i should spread the love :) could somebody with FF's measure the head width of sizes 3-4? i'll measure my dmm's for a compairison.
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jc5462
Jun 12, 2004, 5:13 AM
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Registered: May 25, 2004
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I will add, give the Trango cams a look also. My favorite is still the original Chouinard Camalot with the U-Stem which had 2 plastic tubes and a metal cross piece. I could get closer while aid climbing and I could make the handle stiff or flex and by popping the tubes out of the metal cross piece it could rotate, next is Wired Bliss a favorite with aid climbers too. I tend to carry the Camalots, Wired Bliss, Aliens and Splitter 2cu's, but have cams also from Trango, ABC, Lowe, Kong, Outland, Smiley's, Wild Country, Cassin, Ushba, Chouinard and HB.
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trailbound71
Jun 12, 2004, 5:08 PM
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Gear whore! :D
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moeman
Jun 12, 2004, 5:34 PM
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In reply to: Cassins are rated to 10KN??!! I've got a biner that I could rack with one of them in the open position and they'd be a good match. Perhaps I will stay away from them. Don't worry about the strength rating. Strength ratings are a guideline to strength, not a hard and fast rule to exactly how strong a cam will be in a real world situation. Pro (except in micro sizes) rarely fails; its the placement that fails. The rock will crumble or the cam will slide out long before the cam breaks. Also, companies, especially the more reputable ones (Cassin is very reputable in my book), tend to be very conservative with strength ratings. If it is rated to 10 Kn it will probably hold 15 Kn. Finally, all the BD stoppers sizes 6 and up are only 10 Kn (smaller ones are even weaker), and no one seems to be concerned about this. I'd trust a "10 Kn" stopper over a "16 Kn" Camalot. Why? The stregth rating is insignificant when compared to the stability and simplicity of a stopper. Thus, I say to buy the cam the is more stable, easier to place, etc. Do not avoid Cassin cams simply due to thier strength rating. I haven't used Cassin cams, but I am sure that they are a reliable, well made product. Cassin makes good stuff. Also, check out the Trango Flexcams. The are a little more pricey ($42 if you pay full retail price), but I've heard great things about them. Finally, check out the Metolius Power Cams and TCUs from last year. They are about $50 normally, but most places are selling them on clearance for $35 becuase Metolius is replacing thier line with the "Rangefinder" cams. The rangefinder seems like a stupid gimmik, so you don't need it. Buy the ones from last year; they are some of the best cams on th emarket and go for an unbeatable price now.
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braaaaaaaadley
Jun 12, 2004, 7:53 PM
Post #17 of 20
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[quote="munckee"] In reply to: I know this isn't what you asked for, but I would recomend that you go ahead and invest in camalots. Though they are much more expensive, I think you'll find that eventually you will buy the better cams anyway and will end up leaving the original cheapies at home. If not they have a very good resale value, so most likely you could end up with less lost money than the cost of those cheap cams. :roll: Sorry, I'm going to have to whole-heartedly disagree with this. IMO, camalots are extremely over-rated. They're a good, solid piece, but they're not the end-all and be-all. They're expensive (considerably more so than other "top end" cams) and quite heavy. Will buying camalots over cassins or rock empires make him a better climber or get him up something that he otherwise couldn't climb...no. It's clear he's just starting a rack. Why dump a ton of money when he can get something that will do the same job for a lot less? Later down the line, once he's had time to learn what he likes, then he can invest in expensive cams if he thinks its necessary. By that time, he'll probably want to double up anyway. quote] No, the camalots will not get him up something that he could not get up or improve his overall skill, but what the camalots will do is save his a** if he gets on something over his head. All climbing gear to me at least is an insurance policy. Invested in this policy is gear, and how to use it. If either are compromised then you might as well free solo b/c the gear will not save you if it is crap, or if you dont know how to use it right you're sol also. Invest in good cams. It is way worth it in the long run b/c you will either end up wanting to buy better cams, or b/c you might get hurt using crappier gear. Would you take a ride in an airplane with an engine that might not work?
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moeman
Jun 12, 2004, 8:04 PM
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[quote="braaaaaaaadley"]In reply to: In reply to: I know this isn't what you asked for, but I would recomend that you go ahead and invest in camalots. Though they are much more expensive, I think you'll find that eventually you will buy the better cams anyway and will end up leaving the original cheapies at home. If not they have a very good resale value, so most likely you could end up with less lost money than the cost of those cheap cams. :roll: Sorry, I'm going to have to whole-heartedly disagree with this. IMO, camalots are extremely over-rated. They're a good, solid piece, but they're not the end-all and be-all. They're expensive (considerably more so than other "top end" cams) and quite heavy. Will buying camalots over cassins or rock empires make him a better climber or get him up something that he otherwise couldn't climb...no. It's clear he's just starting a rack. Why dump a ton of money when he can get something that will do the same job for a lot less? Later down the line, once he's had time to learn what he likes, then he can invest in expensive cams if he thinks its necessary. By that time, he'll probably want to double up anyway. quote] No, the camalots will not get him up something that he could not get up or improve his overall skill, but what the camalots will do is save his a** if he gets on something over his head. All climbing gear to me at least is an insurance policy. Invested in this policy is gear, and how to use it. If either are compromised then you might as well free solo b/c the gear will not save you if it is crap, or if you dont know how to use it right you're sol also. Invest in good cams. It is way worth it in the long run b/c you will either end up wanting to buy better cams, or b/c you might get hurt using crappier gear. Would you take a ride in an airplane with an engine that might not work? Also, think about durability. What is going to last longer? The Camalots or the cheap-o cams? While the Camalots may cost twice as much, I suspect they might last twice as long.
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petsfed
Jun 12, 2004, 8:53 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: yada yada camalots good yada yada yada yada camalots bad yada yada yada yada camalots good yada yada Also, think about durability. What is going to last longer? The Camalots or the cheap-o cams? While the Camalots may cost twice as much, I suspect they might last twice as long. Truth be told, camalots won't last any longer than any other cam, if you take care of them. And besides, its climbing gear for pity's sake. If there is enough force to break one cam, chances are there's enough force to break them all. As an aside, I like camalots at the core of my rack. They were my first set of cams, and I use them more than any other. But that's because I can get by with fewer cams for the area I'm in. A full rack of friends for one 80 foot pitch seems excessive to me. But the cracks I climb flare in and out a LOT. So lots of range is a good thing. That's why I bought the camalots. And even then, only the midsizes. I really dislike small camalots(<.75), and big (4.5 & 5) camalots because there really isn't a larger usable range. So to sum up: I personally like camalots for the core of my rack, but for doubles, triples, octuples, I will get the cheapest, lightest cam I can find and only carry it when I'm going to need a multiple of that particular size. Bringing 12 #2 camalots to do Incredible Hand Crack is pointless. Bring your 1 #2 camalot, and a bloody gob of #6 Trango Flex cams, or #2.5 - 3 Friends or DMM cams, or #7 Metolius cams, or #4 Robots, or #3 Cassin Can Cams, or #3 Wired Bliss Quads, or #2.5 HB Flex Fix Cams, or (why not?) as many #3 Tri-cams as you can find. Heck, you could even use a #2.5 alien, though why you would is a mystery to me. You've got options. Picking the first set of cams will likely be the hardest part of buying your entire rack. Keep in mind that you can't screw up, but you can slow yourself down considerably.
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areyoumydude
Jun 12, 2004, 8:54 PM
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If you want long lasting, inexpensive, lightest weight cams I would recomend WC ridged stem friends. I bought a used set 11 years ago and they are still on my rack.
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