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nabisco
Jun 11, 2004, 4:11 PM
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I have an area in mind to start putting up routes. It cliff is about 250' tall with alot of potental for quality routes in the .8-.11 range. I'm really suprised there arent more routes here. Could be because of fail nature of the stone. The rock seems a little soft and I'm not sure on how to judge wheather the rock is solid enough for bolting. How does one judge what size of bolt to use? I took a rock and chipped the rock fairly easily. The rock feels solid, I pounded on flakes with my hand and It felt good(not hollow), but I know thats not a really good indicator. Any guidance would be appreciated.
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moeman
Jun 11, 2004, 4:28 PM
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Before you break out the drill, tune in on the local ethics. Would it be possible to lead these routes on trad gear? Have they already seen a FA on trad? Make sure you aren't just retro-bolting an existing line.
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cragmasterp
Jun 11, 2004, 4:35 PM
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If the rock is sandstone and it is not super hard, you may need to use 1/2" dia. glue in bolts to safely protect. Ditto for soft limestone. This could get expensive. :!:
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kaczoron
Jun 14, 2004, 3:04 AM
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g'day,
I have a mate who did a study on this, you can get a copy of it at chockstone.org.
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/SandstoneBolting.htm
The Bluies and around sydeny can be a "pile of gloifyed choss" but properly set glue in's are fine.
hope it helps.
Nick
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roughster
Jun 14, 2004, 3:35 AM
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In reply to: I have an area in mind to start putting up routes. It cliff is about 250' tall with alot of potental for quality routes in the .8-.11 range. I'm really suprised there arent more routes here. Could be because of fail nature of the stone. The rock seems a little soft and I'm not sure on how to judge wheather the rock is solid enough for bolting. How does one judge what size of bolt to use? I took a rock and chipped the rock fairly easily. The rock feels solid, I pounded on flakes with my hand and It felt good(not hollow), but I know thats not a really good indicator. Any guidance would be appreciated.
Alot depends on your definition of "soft". Choss comes in many shapes and forms, all known well and loved dearly :lol:
1st off you can have the "gritty-choss". This is the kind of choss that looses rock by running your hand over it in "wipe" type motion (think Mt Diablo, many types of lesser choss at Joshua Tree, Owl Tor, etc..). Sometimes you can clean off the outer surface layer and get to harder rock beneath that is perfectly bomber to bolt into with even 3/8" bolts,. However, sometimes you can't. If the true consitstancy of the rock is grainy choss, your only real choice is to go with a glue in. Some people resort to 1/2" x 5"+ bolts, but if your going that far, your better off with a glue-in bolt anyways because over time the outer surface will wear away leaving all your previously bomber bolts, spinners.
There is also "flakey-choss". Think of New Jack City and Echo. This rock also requires a bit of hammer to get through the outer flakey layers that generally don't come off if you just wipe the rock, but tap it with a hammer and watch the choss fly! The rock itself is VERY hard when you can get to the continuous chunks underneath all the top flakey crap. On the steeper sections, its best to go with at least 1/2" bolts however.
Lets not forget "rubble-choss"! Think of most Quarries (Auburn, Riverside Rock Quarry), but also places like Frustration Creek. This is where the rock is insanely compact but is fragmented into various size blocks from "This will only knock my belayer unconcious if it hits him" but including up to "OMG this VW Bug size block is going to fall and smash my belayer into the ground!" The key to bolting this stuff is a crowbar. Yep thats right, a crowbar. If your not willing to test it with a crowbar, don't bolt into it. There is a route at Auburn called Climbers Beware that the FA'ist told me they never thought people would repeat so they just bolted wherever they felt like. Fast forward a few years and in my quest to make sure I had done all the established routes, I wandered onto this thing and could only stare in horror at some of the bolt placements into loose blocks that would certainly pull out (taking the climber with it since the bolt was into to it) if it had to be tested by a lead fall. Really eye ball where the rock fractures are and make sure you are not bolting into a block. If you can trace cracks all the way around your bolt in 360, its probably best to look elsewhere.
Bolting choss can be dangerous because you will leave of line of apparently bomber bolts in your wake, but in reality they are time bombs. Alot of what I am saying is coming from personal experience. There is an area locally to NorCal (Are you talking about the same place :lol: ) that I put up a couple of routes but I am just terrified of climbing them because of the bolts despite them being the 1/2" by 5" type. I plan on going back and replacing them with glue-ins because I just don't want to have to worry about others mistakingly thinking they are bomber when they are not.
Anyways! I know from your profile and some of your posts you might be in NorCal. If you are and the cliff you are talking about is in NorCal, drop me a PM. Theres a real good chance I have been to the cliff you are talking about and can offer some more specific insight. In any case, really try to think about the safety issue if you lean towards sinking in the bolts. If you're at all in doubt, go with the glue ins IMO as ultimately they are the strongest things out there.
Oh, and to the "make sure it wasn't done on gear" comment, if the rock is frighteningly chossy, theres a real good chance people haven't done it on gear, but it certainly a good idea to make sure before you start drilling though.
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roughster
Jun 14, 2004, 3:37 AM
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In reply to: g'day, I have a mate who did a study on this, you can get a copy of it at chockstone.org. http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/SandstoneBolting.htm The Bluies and around sydeny can be a "pile of gloifyed choss" but properly set glue in's are fine. hope it helps. Nick
Interesting read, thanks for posting the link!
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kaczoron
Jun 14, 2004, 3:43 AM
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No probs,
It's a good way to distract me from study.
Nick.
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