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yay_chris


Jun 18, 2004, 8:03 AM
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Placing stoppers question
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Do you jam stoppers hard into position when placing them?

I've been lightly setting them so that they are easier to remove. That said, I have been putting runners on all of them so they don't pop out.

My more experienced friend told me to crank them into place. I think he's right... but what do you guys do?


nthusiastj


Jun 18, 2004, 8:09 AM
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Depends on the placement.
If it's a bomber taper then I just set them lightly. If you fall on it then it will set.
If it's a little questionable or could walk out easily then I give it a little set.
I never yard on them until my hands bleed like some people do. Have a little compassion for your second!

J


tedc


Jun 18, 2004, 8:12 AM
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If you feel you need to set it really hard:
*You need a longer runner.
or
*It is probably a shite palcement and you should consider another option.
or
*You don't know your gear well enough to be climbing trad (safely).

I hate hanging, as a second, to bang out stoppers.


Partner one900johnnyk


Jun 18, 2004, 8:15 AM
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f that, i yank on every one... it's not like they're that expensive if you do happen to fix one, and i'd rather have them set better and on a rare occasion yanking on them will cause something funny to happen that you didn't expect.. the second's on top rope, so what if he has to spend a while getting it out.l

ps run-on sentences are totally awesome


yay_chris


Jun 18, 2004, 8:19 AM
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Yeah... I'm generally really kind to my second with stoppers. ;)


petsfed


Jun 18, 2004, 8:19 AM
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Sometimes, the difference between a crap placement and a good placement is that yank. So I say (barring some sort of perfect, no yank taper which I have never in my entire life experienced) yank on! If its a bother for your second, too bad. They can always take tension to clean. You can't take tension from dead when a stopper blows.


vegastradguy


Jun 18, 2004, 8:25 AM
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ted's right.

at the most, a light tug will do. all cranking them into place will do is make it more difficult to remove and possibly fix the piece.

another reason to not 'crank' the stopper in is in the interest of speed and efficiency, esp. on multipitch. if your second has to spend 2-3 mins per stopper getting them out, you're not only losing that time, but you also lose the time when he has to spend 5-10 mins recovering before lead becuase he spent all that energy not weighting the rope trying to get your stoppers out!


Partner j_ung


Jun 18, 2004, 8:43 AM
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I think a light yank will do in most cases. It's rare that you'll need to really yard on 'em. Every placement is different, though, so, y'know, take 'em as they come.


markc


Jun 18, 2004, 8:44 AM
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Like everything, it depends. Most folks I climb with place the nut while it's still on the racking biner, maybe give a gentle tug or two on the racking biner, then sling it. You should think of your second when placing pro, but it's ultimately your butt that's on the line.

That said, anything beyond a gentle tug (which I read as quite different from "yarding on it") is going to do more harm than good. Jerking on a bad piece isn't going to make it wonderful, and tightly setting a good piece isn't really required.

If it's going to help you move through the crux more quickly, give it a tug. If it takes your second twice as long to clean a pitch as is does for you to lead it, ease up a bit.

mark


Partner one900johnnyk


Jun 18, 2004, 8:52 AM
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In reply to:
Like everything, it depends. Most folks I climb with place the nut while it's still on the racking biner, maybe give a gentle tug or two on the racking biner, then sling it. You should think of your second when placing pro, but it's ultimately your butt that's on the line.

That said, anything beyond a gentle tug (which I read as quite different from "yarding on it") is going to do more harm than good. Jerking on a bad piece isn't going to make it wonderful, and tightly setting a good piece isn't really required.

If it's going to help you move through the crux more quickly, give it a tug. If it takes your second twice as long to clean a pitch as is does for you to lead it, ease up a bit.

mark

yeah, that's what i do. just tug on the biner when i set it, so it's not real forceful or anything...


yay_chris


Jun 18, 2004, 9:35 AM
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Sounds like good advice. Gentle tug is what i've been doing, and gentle tug is what i shall continue to do. Unless I get sketched or something... which is probable.


ex_mea_sententia


Jun 18, 2004, 10:37 AM
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when i took a lead course, the instructor told us to set the nut placement by pulling down hard on it and let your second worry about cleaning.

however, i don't think it's an absolute rule and becomes a judgment call as a climber gets more experience and confidence assessing the circumstances surrounding any particular route.

i neither have the experience nor confidence yet so set my placements by pulling hard.


asandh


Jun 18, 2004, 10:58 AM
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:)


korporal


Jun 18, 2004, 11:18 AM
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I've seconded a bunch of climbs and it doesn't bother me to have to play with a nut to remove it. I would rather spend a little time removing a nut rather than having it pull if and when the leader falls.

My two cents.


tech_dog


Jun 18, 2004, 11:31 AM
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I probably put up to a 15 lb pull on a medium size stopper. If that doesn't make it wedge in, then I look for another piece or location.

If you can't get a stopper to sit well where you need it to.... then you should probably switch to a cam.


stickit


Jun 18, 2004, 11:47 AM
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I've never been keen on being delicate with trad placements. I set them hard. It's your ass out on lead not mine though, so as a second I'd jibber jabber about how fixed the damned nut is...but it's your fall. However that does not ever preclude me from yanking them to set on lead.


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Jun 18, 2004, 12:25 PM
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stickit pretty much nailed it on the head: it's [i:b80e2fe912]your[/i:b80e2fe912] fall.

especially as a new or inexperienced leader, the big book says you can do whatever it takes to ensure your safety and the second is not allowed to b*tch. if he [i:b80e2fe912]does[/i:b80e2fe912], remind him he's doing so from the safety of a toprope.

why do you think they make nut tools? :wink:


Partner coldclimb


Jun 18, 2004, 1:23 PM
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I yank to set it well. If it needs a harder yank or a gentle tug I'll give it what it takes. Don't want it to come out with rope movement, so I make sure it can't. If I was seconding, I'd expect my leader to protect himself as well.


flipnfall


Jun 18, 2004, 1:31 PM
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If the placement looks like it's going to walk out with the jostling of the rope, I try to set it. Sometimes the rock is so smooth or hard that it doesn't sink in, so I try to put a sling or extra draw on the end to ensure that the stopper is being pulled down.

If the crack wraps around your placement, then you have a bomber placement.

Don't be tricked into thinking "bigger is better" (keep your dirty toughts to yourself). A major cause of stoppers walking out is using a stopper size too large for the crack. While it may appear that such a placement won't fall out, in reality it is free to wiggle and walk right out! The ideal-size stopper will have enough surface area touching the rock holding it snug in place. Of course, too small and the stopper won't hold a fall.

In 20 years of climbing, this practice hasn't failed me yet.

GT


geezergecko


Jun 18, 2004, 3:38 PM
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Having seconded a number of climbers, I have noticed that those with the most experience set the nut the hardest. New leaders set the softest. It's almost a direct co-relation. I think those with experience know something.


elvislegs


Jun 18, 2004, 3:55 PM
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In reply to:
Gentle tug is what i've been doing, and gentle tug is what i shall continue to do...

words to live by.


dirtineye


Jun 19, 2004, 9:01 AM
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The answer to this question is learned by experience placing and removing gear, not by asking people on the internet. As you can see, the method varies from person to person.

BUT, I like a longer sling, a bomber placement, and I have a nut tool with a wide butt for banging on with the heel of your hand. Sure there are great placements that will never fail and a gentle tug is all it takes. There are also those placements where you not only want to tug the piece in solid, but use tensioned opposition as well.

In the final analysis, the pro is to keep the leader alive, and it is his call on how to set the pro. The second cleans the gear and does not conplain about how hard it is set, except in jest. Periiod.

For serious nut removal, nothing beats a small hammer, such as the old forrest bam-nut, (combinations tiny hammer and nut tool).


Partner rrrADAM


Jun 19, 2004, 10:44 AM
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Set, not sinched... Shallowest bomber placement possible, not deepest.


slobmonster


Jun 19, 2004, 11:34 AM
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Small nut, shallow placement: good hard tug.
Med/large nut, deeper placemet: gentler tug.
Any nut, less than optimal placement, protecting a R/O: yankaroo.


duskerhu


Jun 19, 2004, 2:31 PM
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You're leading and I'm seconding, you set your nuts in the way that makes you most comfortable... I will clean them regardless of their "set" condition and give you some crap for the ones that are sticky... In "jest" of course.

But also realize, that when you YANK down on them to set 'em, I'm gonna come along a little later and yank UP on them to get 'em out.

I don't like to have to call TAKE to remove a piece that should come out with very little effort and I'm not whipping out that nut tool unless absolutely necessary. And if I have to get out the tool, your nut may have some new scars on it... Hey, you set it! :lol:

duskerhu

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