|
iamthewallress
Jun 17, 2004, 10:05 PM
Post #1 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 2463
|
Does anyone have any tricks that they'd like to share (assuming one leader for the whole climb short-fixing the jugger) for
...fixing the rope quickly with a minimum of gear?
...avoiding factor 2 falls without putting gear in off the top fix point?
...belaying while jugging?
...cleaning traverses requiring lower-outs?
...stretching the rack?
...passing up the rack to the leader?
...optimizing amount of survival supplies vs. weight carried?
...avoiding rope snags?
...the question that I should have asked but didn't?
|
|
|
|
|
mshore
Jun 18, 2004, 1:57 PM
Post #2 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 18, 2002
Posts: 114
|
shit
|
|
|
|
|
flamer
Jun 18, 2004, 4:22 PM
Post #3 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955
|
In reply to: Does anyone have any tricks that they'd like to share (assuming one leader for the whole climb short-fixing the jugger) for ...fixing the rope quickly with a minimum of gear? ...avoiding factor 2 falls without putting gear in off the top fix point? ...belaying while jugging? ...cleaning traverses requiring lower-outs? ...stretching the rack? ...passing up the rack to the leader? ...optimizing amount of survival supplies vs. weight carried? ...avoiding rope snags? ...the question that I should have asked but didn't?
Melissa...What route specifically are you thinking of doing?
Look at the topo and then add your knowledge of the route ....then think about what you could do at specific section's to move fast.
Example...on the WFLT We didn't short fix the first 4 pitch's- instead we simul aided them. Think about it....the follower is *almost* always on bolts when the leader is climbing...plus you have a bomber anchor(top of pitch 2) in between you- and nothing but air. Doing it this way the follower doesn't have to jug super steep stuff, and the leader never stop's moving.
Use pre-designated anchor "kits"- this could vary, but for speed ascents with short fixing maybe 3 lockers for each "kit".
hmmm...can't really think of anything else.
josh
|
|
|
|
|
iamthewallress
Jun 18, 2004, 5:02 PM
Post #4 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 2463
|
In reply to: Melissa...What route specifically are you thinking of doing?
Shhhh....It's a secret. ;-) Actually, my questions are general although there is a particular climb that we keep repeating as a way of learning how to optimize our efficiency. My partner's the fast climber, so I'm working on being the fast jugger for the long stuff. We both get to play strategy though, so here I am with my questions...
In reply to: Look at the topo and then add your knowledge of the route ....then think about what you could do at specific section's to move fast.
LOL. I hear you. I know the topo better than the Pledge of Allegiance now. And somehow it keeps coming out a breakfast and dinner every day.
In reply to: Use pre-designated anchor "kits"- this could vary, but for speed ascents with short fixing maybe 3 lockers for each "kit".
We've been tieing a knot in the rope and fixing it to two pieces with one biners per piece to cut down on gear....and been toying with ideas for using one locker and running the rope through rap rings and such. The "real" speed climbers fix off of one 'bomber' piece, but have some kind of back up running (a rig that is not just a piece off the ancor...looking for info on this) to avoid taking a true factor two onto the anchor. I'm not sure where I draw the line on what I think is "good enough". What are the "kits" (webolettes?)
Thanks for the suggestions. There are a lot of simul-things that would speed us up if I was simply a better climber. Since I'm not going to be any time soon...I guess I'm trying to think of ways to engineer a little bit more speed into our system at the moment.
As for belaying while jugging...my partner is soloing off the short fix. There is just a limit where he needs to switch to aiding (which is slower) when the free gets too hard to do with a self-belay. If I could belay while cleaning, he could keep free climbing...but we're not sure how to run this in a way that would be efficient and safe.
|
|
|
|
|
ammon
Jun 18, 2004, 8:32 PM
Post #5 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 220
|
**Warning**
Rock climbing is dangerous - These techniques that are discussed will/can put you in a world of hurt.
...fixing the rope quickly with a minimum of gear?
I use two lockers, nothing else. Pull up the slack fix the line with one locker. Tell your partner the line is fixed and then back it up with the other locker. Put yourself on belay and then make sure you get one solid piece right above the belay. We used to use a figure eight on a bite and clove-hitch on the second locker. The clove-hitch starts riding up on the gate so now I use two figure eight on bites.
...avoiding factor 2 falls without putting gear in off the top fix point?
I guess the only answer to that question, is make sure you test well and don't fall. I like to have a bomber piece above the belay. It's dicey enough when cutting a few corners.
...belaying while jugging?
Sometimes you can do this but not on every pitch. It has to be a pretty plumb line for you to be able to grab the loop of rope that the leader is short fixing with. Sometimes you have to pendi to be able to get it. There are other ways but it further complicates the system. It’s better if the leader got more efficient with self belaying. When you put the leader on belay you have two options. Go off belay, drop the loop and pull it in real fast... put the leader on belay and break down the short fix (Only do this if you're on bomber gear). Or have the leader feed the rope from his/her device while you're taking up the slack through the belayer's device.
...cleaning traverses requiring lower-outs?
Duece. Or take the ride. I like to bring a cam hook and a grappler while I'm cleaning to speed things up. Watch the corners.
...stretching the rack?
Lots of leap frogging. I like to look at the gear that I'm taking out to see if I can use it above. If it's the same size crack for a ways I leap the placements and leave a piece when the crack changes. A general rule is to use a rack and a half so you won't run out when you short fix.
...passing up the rack to the leader?
Use a 100' foot 7m (When you're not hauling) Clip it into a biner when you get to the belay so you're cleaner can reach it if you traverse. If the leader is further than 100 feet out, then use a loop, or the end of your lead line to extend it. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and realize you can only tag once in the pitch.
...optimizing amount of survival supplies vs. weight carried?
That's a tough one. Water is the only thing that you REALLY need to survive. Bring to much and you might bonk because of the load (if not hauling). To little..... well, you know what happens then. Bring a handful of bars with lots of carbs. This is more of a personal question because some can go a long time without certain substances.... others can't.
...avoiding rope snags?
My favorite method is to stack the rope over a sling. If the wind picks up this is a very important thing to remember. A snagged rope could cost you hours. A rope bag is useful as well.
...the question that I should have asked but didn't?
"How do you haul and short fix at the same time?"
Use a 200', 7-8m line. After the leader fixes the lead line, pull up all the slack on the haul line and fix it to separate biners. When the cleaner gets to the belay he/she will have to pull up the weight of the bag and thread it through the hauling device. The leader can do it on the first pitch of their block, but after that the cleaner has the hauling device until you switch.
Sometimes this technique is better than the cleaner trying to jumar with a heavy pack of water. It actually saves time because it saves strength.
Hope this helps. See you on the Big Stone!!!
Cheers, Ammon
|
|
|
|
|
ammon
Jun 18, 2004, 8:45 PM
Post #6 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 220
|
One more thing than can help....
Pay close attention when you're docking your daisy/aider. Don't just throw them over your shoulder or drop them (I see this a lot).
And don't just clip them anywhere without thinking about why/where you clip them.
Try and clip them to the next piece of gear that you will need.
So, you just climbed your aider, you reach down and decide that you need pro.... you clip the rope and unclip your daisy/aider and then clip it to your green alien.
Why did you clip it to your green alien? Because you looked at the next placement before you looked down to unclip your daisy/aider.
If you don't know your next placement or think it might be a nut/pin/etc. Clip your daisy/aider to a draw or loose biner. Then when you go to unclip it grab the draw or biner and clip that into your piece. This way it saves you a move every time and gets you set up for pro.
If you make 300 placements while on your climb and you save 1 extra clip every time...... you end up shaving more time than you realize.
Now you know the tricks...... Get out there and use them!!!
Cheers, Ammon
|
|
|
|
|
iamthewallress
Jun 18, 2004, 8:59 PM
Post #7 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 2463
|
Thanks for all the tips, Ammon.
I need to pose my question about rope snags better...When you are jugging, do you tie in a bunch of back ups (takes time) or let it go underneath you (may snag). On our first effort, I left the rope hang when the jugging was more or less straight up and I didn't think it would hang...but it did anyway and we lost an hour. On our second effort, I tied eights into my harness on a locker. No hang-ups, but the time that we got back from the hang went into rope management. The upside of the latter scheme was that I effectively had a stack running off of those bites.
|
|
|
|
|
joe
Jun 18, 2004, 9:01 PM
Post #8 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 897
|
awesome post, ammon. killer beta.
|
|
|
|
|
flamer
Jun 18, 2004, 9:23 PM
Post #9 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 22, 2002
Posts: 2955
|
In reply to: awesome post, ammon. killer beta.
Agreed.
And joe...we need to get back to Zion....or maybe the Valley this fall?
josh
|
|
|
|
|
valygrl
Jun 18, 2004, 9:41 PM
Post #10 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 8, 2002
Posts: 247
|
Yeah, great post Ammon! Thanks!
Anna
|
|
|
|
|
holdplease2
Jun 18, 2004, 9:58 PM
Post #11 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 18, 2002
Posts: 1733
|
I think that the first and most important step for you in terms of speed ascents is to leave me on the deck.
But you knew that. ;)
-Kate.
|
|
|
|
|
iamthewallress
Jun 18, 2004, 10:32 PM
Post #12 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 2463
|
In reply to: I think that the first and most important step for you in terms of speed ascents is to leave me on the deck. But you knew that. ;) -Kate.
It's all relative, Kate. And you and me gots nowhere to go but up in terms of speed! :lol: I'd say that if self-betterment is the goal, we can't loose.
|
|
|
|
|
iamthewallress
Jun 18, 2004, 10:36 PM
Post #13 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 2463
|
In reply to: The leader can do it on the first pitch of their block, but after that the cleaner has the hauling device until you switch.
So you use a freight hook to leave the bag at the anchors while the jugger cleans?
|
|
|
|
|
megableem
Jun 18, 2004, 10:42 PM
Post #14 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 13, 2004
Posts: 160
|
In reply to: So you use a freight hook to leave the bag at the anchors while the jugger cleans?
I think Ammon was assuming the bag was small enough to be (wo)man-handled:
In reply to: When the cleaner gets to the belay he/she will have to pull up the weight of the bag and thread it through the hauling device. |
|
|
|
|
addiroids
Jun 19, 2004, 3:45 AM
Post #15 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 11, 2001
Posts: 1046
|
As I was reading this, and Melissa's last response I came up with an idea:
With the thought of feeding the haul line into the hauling device, what if you can't pull it up with one hand after it is feeded and into the locker?
Since you haul off a high bolt anyways, why don't the leader just fix the haul line to a high bolt, then leave about 4-6 inches of slack (enough to get the hauling device fed, and attach a jug on the small bit of loop) and then fix the weight of the pig to the power point with a "cargo hook" like Melissa was saying. Or for that matter, just use a biner to fix it to the power point.
Am I missing something here? I always had the haul device sent up to me, and put it on a bolt (we use 2 nuts in parallel for degrees of freedom as a "frost draw) and took out the slack in the haul line before it was lowered out.
BUT...if you are hauling off a bolt anyways (okay, not a high one for the extension thing if it blows but one on the side) why the hell can't the leader just fix the haul line to the power point tight, let the follower lower the pig, then when the follower gets to the station (leader is gone short fixing) put the hauling device on the bolt, pull up (OKAY, just realized something here - next) the slack, dismantle the knot on the power point, and haul.
SO HERE IS WHAT I REALIZED...Damn, and I thought I had it figured out. You can't really dismantle the knot because the damn weight of the haul bag is on the knot. At the very least you could use a clove on a biner without a nose and hope to slide the biner out and the clove would undo, but damn, I don't think my above idea will work. I kept it just so we can eliminate a wrong thing. Sorry.
My solution is to tag the hauling device with anchor stuff (I usually do 2 tags when hauling, should cut it to one!) as you are nearing the station and have to pull up the haul line. The haul line comes up and so does the hauler. The bags almost have to have been hauled by the time the leader is at the new station anyways. Sure the bags are on a device when lowering them out, but back it up with a knot even if it is horizontally backed up.
I also honestly don't how much time the dropping the loop of rope and belaying while cleaning would speed stuff up so much. If the loop is THAT long that it would reach the cleaner, isn't the pitch being cleaned pretty damn short, and if it has to be vertical, then isn't that pitch pretty damn quick to clean (unless it is a lot of funking)?? Just trying to work stuff out in my head here.
Thanks for the tips Ammon!!
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
|
|
|
|
|
alpinestylist
Jun 19, 2004, 6:35 AM
Post #16 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 193
|
smooth is fast....
Ammons beta on clipping your aiders in the right spot seems real helpful to me.
Cheers speed freaks
|
|
|
|
|
lambone
Jun 19, 2004, 7:41 AM
Post #17 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1399
|
take a big piss before you start
|
|
|
|
|
ammon
Jun 21, 2004, 12:39 AM
Post #18 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 220
|
Hey Mel,
Clipping in loops is one good way of stacking the ropes while jugging. Sometimes you don't need to tie a lot, one or two might be enough to keep the ropes away from flakes, horns, bolts, etc.
If you have a lot of rope to pull up; put a biner into your top ascender, clip the rope and pull the rope downward, through it. It's usually faster and saves more strength than pulling from below.
Paul,
You can tag the haul device up on every pitch (after you haul), but then the leader has to thread the device at the belay every time. No big deal, but it's better if the leader stays focused on going up and spend as little time as possible at the belay.
If you can't pull the bags up to thread the haul device then use a sling and a jumar as a counter balance. Clip in over a biner and 1:1 the bags until you get a loop to use.
Usually I don't have to do this however because the bags are only 20-25 pounds (on a long push). The key is to find the method that works for you and dial it for simplicity.
Cheers, Ammon
|
|
|
|
|
ammon
Jun 21, 2004, 1:01 AM
Post #19 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 220
|
Oh, and the best hauling device I've found is the Pro-traction (sp). Don't get the mini, it's worthless.... well, it's a pain to deal with.
It's a lot easier to feed that loop with the Pro-traction because you don't have to unclip/clip it from the biner.
Cheers!!!
|
|
|
|
|
addiroids
Jun 21, 2004, 8:24 AM
Post #20 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 11, 2001
Posts: 1046
|
Ammon,
That's kind of what I was thinking, but trying to make it as easy as possible for poor old cleaner. But yeah, that would work. Good advice.
And the Pro Traxion does rule. Got the mini for a backup though.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
|
|
|
|
|
papounet
Jun 21, 2004, 8:46 AM
Post #21 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2003
Posts: 471
|
Question:
if the leader is self-belaying (short fixing), and yet wants to protect the belay, why not have a screamer in the anchor kits ??
Weight against peace of mind ????
|
|
|
|
|
ammon
Jun 21, 2004, 9:54 AM
Post #22 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 220
|
Yes. Screamers are good on difficult terrain. I was talking about easy ground.
Use what is comfortable with the situation.
Send!! But be smart about it.
Cheers!!!
|
|
|
|
|
hollyclimber
Jun 23, 2004, 2:42 AM
Post #23 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 27, 2002
Posts: 124
|
For the rope snag while jugging, I still want to hear what Ammon (or Soloist Dave) would say. What I do is: if the pitch looks like there is any chance of a snag:
1) use a rope bag (a small one) or
2) stack the rope in a sling with whatever slack there is when I start (none if your partner had short fixed but maybe alot of you aren't short fixing and the pitch wasn't 200 feet), then every once in a while I bother to pull up the loop below me and add it to the stack. You can usually stop stacking before you get to the belay, because you can see that the loop below you is clear, but it depends on the terrain.
For "camping missions" I feel this is pretty good, as you are not going that fast anyway and can still usually stack your rope and beat the haul bag (always the goal, right!). Better to take a few minutes on a camping mission to stack the rope then an hour to remove the snag (as you know). However, I think that this time needs to be cut out on serious speed ascents, which is where Ammon or someone else who climbs fast comes in....
Holly
|
|
|
|
|
dsafanda
Jun 24, 2004, 6:27 PM
Post #24 of 24
(4184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2002
Posts: 1025
|
The fast climbers that I've had the opportunity to climb with rely on surprisingly few tricks or gimmicks. They simply have exceptionally smooth and efficient climbing technique. I don't doubt that there are numerous helpful time saving strategies but keeping it really simple definitely seems to be the key ingredient to me.
disclaimer:
Of coarse this theory regarding speed climbing is based purely on close observation. I'm not suggesting that I myself have been burning it up. ;)
|
|
|
|
|
|
