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rockzen
Jun 12, 2004, 4:19 AM
Post #126 of 135
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Registered: Feb 21, 2003
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In reply to: Regarding the picture of the guy rappelling: In reply to: A couple of points... I agree... why isn't the rope clipped to the biner instead? I think it should not be through the hanger. Do you leave a Biner every time you rappell?? It looks fine to put the rope through....other than having 1 instead of 2.
If this is a single pitch top rope and there is access to get up and down, then it is not necessary to feed the rope through the hangers.
In reply to: In reply to: Also, what's this rope for? If it is a top rope, then the power point should be over the edge. What power point :?: The guy is clearly about to rap off. You can tell from the fact that he is....well...set up for a rappell.
If the person was attempting to set up a top rope, they may want to rap off their top rope. But in this case, if that was their intent, the rope should not go over the edge. If on the other hand this is multi-pitch and the rope is not being used as a top rope, then fine. That's why I asked what the rope was going to be used for...
Dave
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kman
Jun 12, 2004, 5:12 AM
Post #127 of 135
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Registered: Oct 16, 2001
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In reply to: If the person was attempting to set up a top rope, they may want to rap off their top rope. But in this case, if that was their intent, the rope should not go over the edge. If on the other hand this is multi-pitch and the rope is not being used as a top rope, then fine. That's why I asked what the rope was going to be used for...
Dunno man. Totally looks like he is simply rapping off of the climb / finishing up. If it is set up for a t-r then that's just silly. I am willing to bet that he is done with it. Guess we will need the clarification from the poster and it seems as though I misunderstood your post. Thanks for the clarification.
Cheers!
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jansuw
Jun 12, 2004, 10:50 AM
Post #128 of 135
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Registered: May 24, 2002
Posts: 140
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Yes, I was rapping off. The intent was to rappel halfway down the face to set up a toprope anchor there (one bolt and a tree). The bolt is a Petzl glue-in. In retrospect it would've been easier to clip a biner to the bolt, instead of threading the rope through the bolt. The only thing that is sketchy is that there is only one piece. I think...... 8^)
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firsttraxx
Jun 12, 2004, 4:46 PM
Post #129 of 135
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Registered: Jun 7, 2004
Posts: 34
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I'm still stuck on the aforementioned fatality.
http://www.rmrg.net/html/incident-reports.html
The horror!
Poor guys, but still....
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vegastradguy
Jun 16, 2004, 3:48 PM
Post #130 of 135
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Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
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coyle-
well, personally, i would have clipped two draws to the bolt hangers directly and called it a day.
however, if you feel that 3 points is necessary or desired (and theres nothing wrong with that...if theres a crack and you want to back up the bolts, then have at it!), i would have done a couple things different:
1) clip to the hangers directly, not the rap rings. thats just one more thing that can fail. this is the only 'major' flaw i can really see with this anchor.
Other things to consider for ease of set up.:
2) i would have considered extending the bolts with draws(w/ locking carabiners), not the stopper. this would have made the legs more even and a little easier to work with.
3) put a carabiner on the stopper, not a draw. this would have done the same as #2.
4) while 8mm perlon is more than fine, 7mm would do the job just as well and reduce weight and bulk. of course, this is more important for multipitch and whatnot...
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jt512
Jun 16, 2004, 5:17 PM
Post #131 of 135
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Registered: Apr 12, 2001
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In reply to: This is a top-rope anchor I setup one of my first times out climbing. The green rope belongs to a soloist who was cleaning on rap off my anchor.
If you must use a rap station for a toprope anchor, clip your anchor to the hangars and leave the rap rings free for others to rappel from.
As vegastrad guy stated, two draws would likely have sufficed for this anchor.
-Jay
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boku
Jun 16, 2004, 6:27 PM
Post #132 of 135
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Registered: Jun 11, 2004
Posts: 278
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In reply to: I also think whoever sold the webbing to him contributed. If I say I want 40 feet of webbing, no one qualified to sell climbing gear is going to give me 40 feet with a splice in it. It's still the climber's responsiblity to check his gear, but a qualified salesperson might have saved him from his own ignorance... this time at least.
Well, here's the thing:
When you read the full report, you see that they didn't go to the store and buy a couple 40-foot chunks of webbing. They went to the store and bought a full spool of webbing. The spool was clearly marked "Caution: Contains Splices."
Edit add: I'm wrong about this, as tech_dog points out later in this thread.
If they did just go to the store and buy a 40-foot chunk, I'd expect that a responsible salescreature would dispense a full, unspliced 40-footer. And if they encountered a splice while measuring it out, they'd put what they'd measured in the shorty bin and them measure out the next 40 feet to get a full and unspliced length. But, unfortunately, that's not what happened.
The one thing I'd like to see differently regarding the webbing packaging is that the warning label maybe oughta be a bit clearer on the fact that the splices are not structural, and maybe should tell how to identify the splices when you encounter them.
But I have to say that I'm one of the ignorant people who has never bought a full spool of webbing, and didn't previously know about the tape splices.
Bob K.
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tech_dog
Jun 16, 2004, 10:54 PM
Post #133 of 135
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Registered: May 14, 2004
Posts: 224
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In reply to: In reply to: I also think whoever sold the webbing to him contributed. If I say I want 40 feet of webbing, no one qualified to sell climbing gear is going to give me 40 feet with a splice in it. It's still the climber's responsiblity to check his gear, but a qualified salesperson might have saved him from his own ignorance... this time at least. Well, here's the thing: When you read the full report, you see that they didn't go to the store and buy a couple 40-foot chunks of webbing. They went to the store and bought a full spool of webbing. The spool was clearly marked "Caution: Contains Splices." If they did just go to the store and buy a 40-foot chunk, I'd expect that a responsible salescreature would dispense a full, unspliced 40-footer. And if they encountered a splice while measuring it out, they'd put what they'd measured in the shorty bin and them measure out the next 40 feet to get a full and unspliced length. But, unfortunately, that's not what happened. The one thing I'd like to see differently regarding the webbing packaging is that the warning label maybe oughta be a bit clearer on the fact that the splices are not structural, and maybe should tell how to identify the splices when you encounter them. But I have to say that I'm one of the ignorant people who has never bought a full spool of webbing, and didn't previously know about the tape splices. Bob K.
The exact wording in the report is:
"This is the actual spool FROM which the webbing was purchased on the day before the climb."
I take that to mean that they DID buy just the forty feet, not the entire spool. Had they bought the other spool, it should have said:
"This is the actual spool THAT was purchased on the day before the climb."
Is there a more specific statement that indicates otherwise? I re-read the report, and it appears to me that a sales clerk spooled off 40 feet of webbing with a splice, and sold it to them.
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boku
Jun 16, 2004, 11:02 PM
Post #134 of 135
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Registered: Jun 11, 2004
Posts: 278
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In reply to: The exact wording in the report is: "This is the actual spool FROM which the webbing was purchased on the day before the climb." I take that to mean that they DID buy just the forty feet, not the entire spool. Had they bought the other spool, it should have said: "This is the actual spool THAT was purchased on the day before the climb." Is there a more specific statement that indicates otherwise? I re-read the report, and it appears to me that a sales clerk spooled off 40 feet of webbing with a splice, and sold it to them.
Now I think that you're correct, and that I misread the report. My apologies.
Bob K.
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lumpy
Jun 20, 2004, 4:39 PM
Post #135 of 135
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Registered: Jun 20, 2004
Posts: 18
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I was just wasting some more time at work perusing this thread and chuckling to myself when I saw this statement about the accident at happy hour crag,
"Of course a fatal accident is sad--but these guys clearly didn't have a clue. Reported experience is obviously not equivalent to real expereince and knowledge."
This is simply not true, the climber in question who died, Mike Sofranko, did have years of experience with traditional climbing and could onsight 5.11 trad. I believe his website is still around and he used to be a frequent contributer to climbingboulder.com if you doubt me.
This was an interesting thread but its good to keep in mind that when expereinced climbers die its rarely because they didn't equalize their belay properly or put in three pieces instead of four, its because they make simple errors like Mike did, such as clipping over the webbing instead of through it. I have no doubt he realized this was wrong, he just got lazy which eventually happens to all of us if we climb for long enough. Saftey lies in double checking everything.
On a side note information such as using a figure eight instead of a clove hitch at the belay is not only wrong, it could be potentially dangerous. Clove hitch's can hold thousands of pounds of force and more importantly are adjustable without untieing the knot which is absolutely necesary in many situations in multipitch climbing.
I guess ultimately what I want to say is that you can be uber safe when setting up anchors putting in four bomber pieces instead of three, you can also as they say wear a helmet while driving, but real saftey lies in gettting qualified instruction, experience, and never getting lazy about the basics, far more than being super meticulous about everything.
-Patrick Vernon
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