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musicman
Jun 21, 2004, 1:04 AM
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so, when your rapping with two ropes tied together when half a rope isn't long enough what kind of knot do you use to tie the ropes together? i've been really curious about this for a while now. i'm not planning on using it till i have someone show me in person, i'm just curious
ps, i dont' konw the names of alot of knots so if you have a diagram or wouldn't mind explaining it to me that would be great
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shrubby
Jun 21, 2004, 1:08 AM
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use the double fisherman
here is a link to an exampe
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/JoinRopes.htm#Fisherman
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musicman
Jun 21, 2004, 1:19 AM
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exactly what i was looking for, thanks alot, doesn't lool like the easiest knot to tie though, thanks again!
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galf
Jun 21, 2004, 1:50 AM
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Don't follow his advice!!!! Your knot will get stuck way too often!!
Use the EDK (simple overhand), check it out on Petzl site
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radistrad
Jun 21, 2004, 2:04 AM
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I tie a square knot and back it up with double fisherman knots. I've never gotten my rope stuck and have 1000's of rappels over the years.
I see folks use the EDK but I just dont like it, even though I've never heard of one failing.
The square knot I use in my double fishermans allows for easy untying of the fishermans knot.
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musicman
Jun 21, 2004, 2:10 AM
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yeah, the double fisherman's does look like it'd be hard to untie, i also noticed the double figure 8, i can tie that quite easily and it looks pretty safe, might not hurt to add 2 stopper knots though, the overhand not doesn't seem all that safe though, i'm not sure why but in my mind a knot that i've used all my life doesn't seem good, anyone care to compare/contrast with pros/cons of each?
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shrubby
Jun 21, 2004, 2:43 AM
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ive never had it get stuck. it isnt hard to tie. itll be just as hard to untie as any other knot you put weight on. the figure 8 is more bulky than the double fisherman, so is more likely to get caught. as far as space goes, the dbl fisherman is prettty compact.
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tech_dog
Jun 21, 2004, 2:52 AM
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I use the double fishermans. I think it's the most trustworthy of knots.
I've never had one take more than a few moments to untie, but it does take a good hard first "pick" to loosen it up.
I have had the knot get stuck before, but have always been able to work it lose.
Tests have shown that the overhand is nearly as good, but it's so easy to untie that it makes me nervious. I'd only use this knot if the terrain made a snag extremely likely.
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billcoe_
Jun 21, 2004, 2:58 AM
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In reply to: yeah, the double fisherman's does look like it'd be hard to untie, i also noticed the double figure 8, i can tie that quite easily and it looks pretty safe, might not hurt to add 2 stopper knots though, the overhand not doesn't seem all that safe though, i'm not sure why but in my mind a knot that i've used all my life doesn't seem good, anyone care to compare/contrast with pros/cons of each?
Musicman: there have been deaths using the figure 8. It all depends how its done. Do a search on this site to read more. Meantime, best to use the double fishermans or the EDK, the EDK is the prefered knot, read John Longs book for more. Its safe, leave a long tail.
B
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musicman
Jun 21, 2004, 3:17 AM
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In reply to: Tests have shown that the overhand is nearly as good, but it's so easy to untie that it makes me nervious.
thats exactly what i think, i'm not plannin on going and rapping off a 100 foot cliff anytime soon without learning in person how to tie the two together so dont worry about me dying or anything but, i totally agree with the nevous-ness of the overhand knot, the fishermans' looks relatively quick too once i get it down.
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roadman33
Jun 21, 2004, 3:20 AM
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Hey
Use the over hand. It's great. If you have any doughts, look in any climbing how to book. They all say it's ok. As everyone else I've "never had my ropes stuck" ,and Well Ok I've got a rope stuck a time or two. Winds blow hard in patagonia! But the over hand is a great knott. Also learn the muter and the clove hitch.
Learn self-rescue. Join a Mt. Rescue team, or hire a guide and learn everything you can. It's very important, and even if you never have to use what you learn for a real rescue you can use it to speed up and improve your own climbing.
Be safe
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musicman
Jun 21, 2004, 3:28 AM
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In reply to: Hey Learn self-rescue. Join a Mt. Rescue team, or hire a guide and learn everything you can. It's very important, and even if you never have to use what you learn for a real rescue you can use it to speed up and improve your own climbing. Be safe
i couldn't agree more, i'm mostly just curious but wanna start climbing some big multi-pitch stuff, sport first, a year or so from now i really wanna learn to trad climb, but, hey, curiousity concerning safety didn't kill the cat did it?
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perficthands
Jun 21, 2004, 4:00 AM
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I use the "Figure 9", which is a Figure 8 with an extra half-twist. You put the ends of the 2 ropes you are joining together (right next to each other), and tie a figure 8, but use an extra half twist before you put the ends through. Try it, it's really easy. Once you tie it, pull it into a nice compact ball and "dress" it so it looks neat, and you're done.
It is way faster and easier to tie than a figure 8 follow-through or a double fishermans, and safer than an overhand. It has the same advantages as the overhand, if you do it right it pulls into a nice compact ball which sits away from the rock and almost never gets stuck. I've been using it for about 6 or 7 years, since a friend from New Zealand showed it to me, and I've never used any other rappel knot since then. It does not get stuck, does not come untied, and is fairly easy to untie after pulling your ropes.
I have no idea why no one else seems to use this knot, except that it is not in any of the books I've seen, and it is one more knot to learn, which may add slightly to the confusion for total novices. For anyone who can tie a figure 8, it is incredibly easy to learn and remember how to tie a figure 9.
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rendog
Jun 21, 2004, 4:07 AM
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In reply to: Hey Use the over hand. It's great. If you have any doughts, look in any climbing how to book. They all say it's ok. Be safe
well I'll put in my .02$ worth here I suppose. I always used a double fishermans knot. that is up until this last year. I spent a lot of time climbing with a good friend of mine who is about to become a guide. The ACMG way of tying the knot is the overhand knot (that's what I'm told anyway by quite a few of my guide friends). I thought it was just a load of bnk at first, but then I saw it use by many others in the same outfit and thought ok If this is the way that credited guides are doing it then it has to ok right?
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badass
Jun 21, 2004, 5:09 AM
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The safest way is with a figure eight knot with double fishermans backups.
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sarcat
Jun 21, 2004, 2:15 PM
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In reply to: The safest way is with a figure eight knot with double fishermans backups.
Don't forget the safeties after that with stoppers on the tails.
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gds
Jun 21, 2004, 3:16 PM
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In reply to: The safest way is with a figure eight knot with double fishermans backups.
The safest way is to not climb at all.
But if you want to rap off of two ropes of similar diameter the EDK, a simple overhand knot with long tails is the way to go. The knot will not fail and is much less likely to snag and is relatively easy to untie.
As to the poster above who has thousands of raps without a snag. Perhaps on short routes, but it is hard to believe that to be the case on longer multi pitch routes. I don't know anyone who hasn't gotten a rope snagged at some point. The idea is to minimize the experience.
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adamfox
Jun 21, 2004, 3:19 PM
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The best way to tie two ropes together is the way that you have 100% mastery of doing.
It’s hard to say that one way is “safer” than the next, if safer is “stronger” how much is the maximum anticipated load in a rappeling situation? Or if “safer” is ease of tying/untying and lower chance of a snag? I.e. pitch 3 of a 7 pitch rapp, lightning storm coming in and you are trying to untie a big honking knot with fisherman’s backups either side.
I have done a lot of lab and field testing of knots/belay devices/pro and here’s what I have found regarding the “Euro Death Knot” AKA the “Flat Overhand” it tests incredibly well, the failure being “rolling off he end” rather than failure of material, but both at very high loads.
The Flat Overhand is a great way to tie ropes together but with any as with any system you must remember some key points:
Leave a long tail, around 18” or as long as your forearm, dress the knot, use same diameter ropes, tuck the tails up out of the way when you rig for rappel so that you don’t mistakenly put yourself on rappel on one of the tail strands.
Please email me if you are interested in the latest paper I have written that details testing on sling materials (wet and sry), knots, stoppers, belay devices and friction hitches. It’s free and in PDF format.
Regards,
Adam
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steve0492
Jun 21, 2004, 11:51 PM
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the double fisherman's is easy to tie. when someone shows you in person it looks a lot more soimple :wink:
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gds
Jun 21, 2004, 11:57 PM
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In reply to: the double fisherman's is easy to tie. when someone shows you in person it looks a lot more soimple :wink:
Yeah but its very hard to unite! And it has a tendency to get caught in cracks/features.
But go ahead and use it. Its safe--as long as you can get your rope free.
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davidji
Jun 22, 2004, 12:12 AM
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In reply to: But go ahead and use it. Its safe--as long as you can get your rope free.
A couple of people in this thread have mentioned using a fig-8. It isn't clear exactly what they meant as there are many possible ways to do these various knots with two ropes, but if they mean tying it like the overhand (EDK), but with an extra twist, that's bad. More than one person has died from that one untying. It looks safer than the overhand, but tests show it is not safe. If you backed it up (as one or more of the posters suggested) maybe it would be safe from untying, but why start with a dangerous knot in the first place, when there are simple, safe, low-profile knots available.
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knudenoggin
Jun 22, 2004, 12:48 AM
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In reply to: use the double fisherman here is a link to an exampe http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/JoinRopes.htm#Fisherman
First of all, note that this version of the Grapevine is NOT what almost everyone would tie,
and is shown in nearly every reference: this version is of strangle-knot components of opposite handedness!
(I.e., the proper, common version, has components that are identical, just facting opposite ways.)
Now, to the question, the link nicely shows the Offset Overhand abseil-rope-joining knot
immediately below the Grapevine ("Dbl.Fisherman's"). This is the knot favored for its
quick tying/untying, small size, and smooth flowing over rough surfaces.
In joining ropes of dfferent sizes, the THINNER rope should be in the position of the gold rope
in the linked image (looks like Bluewater II static line). This is because it
will then be better blocked against rolling over the thicker line; in the reverse
orienatation, the thick would too easily roll over the thin.
Also, in the tied-knot images for this Offset Overhand Bend, the golden (and would be THIN) end
should be pulled around so that it would be where the dark end is.
This anticipates the draw of the loaded parts, which will be pulling it back
the other way; it puts a possible deformation into a roll
that much more removed.
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As for other options simillarly "offset", while the Offset Fig.9 is okay,
you really only need the lower (gold rope)part to be in a 9, and the
other could be an overhand--just make the extra wrap in the thinner
rope (which is what gives better prevention of rolling). You could also
make this a Fig.8
--knudenoggin
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