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socalbolter
Jul 2, 2004, 11:20 PM
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It seems that several grades are soft (rated higher than their true difficulty) for routes at Malibu Creek and Echo Cliffs (maybe other area crags too?).
When writing my recent guidebook to these areas, I tried to go with the somewhat limited input I got from area users on the newer lines at each area. Much of this information may not have been as accurate as I would have liked.
I'm now asking for your help in the way of feedback on these ratings. Whether you want to post it in this thread for public discussion, PM me or email me, I would welcome all related input and comments on both difficulty and quality (star) ratings for any routes in the guide.
Thank you in advance for your help and opinions.
- Louie
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socalbolter
Jul 3, 2004, 1:07 AM
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bump
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ikefromla
Jul 3, 2004, 1:08 AM
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Very good thinking Louie. I have not climbed anything at Malibu other than at the Ghetto recently enough to give fair input, but here's what I think about that wall: Just about every grade there is accurate. I do feel that Johnny Can't Lead only deserves 11a, but the four stars should stay for sure. I also always considered Kathmandu to be a proper 5.10a, not b; however, I have done that thing so many times now that it feels like 5.5, so I can't really say. I personally feel that Brenna, rated 13c/d and two stars should be UPgraded (yes, I know, big move huh?). Shawn originally told me that he, Chris Lindner and Cody Roth (though the latter two did not send it) all felt that it was 13d. Having sent in that range and worked it extensively, I feel that 13d is solid. It is also at least a three star route (though I personally say four and I would guess that Lateralus should warrant 5).
As for Echo, I'll give you what I can, though I haven't climbed there extensively enough to give you a full spray down. Morning Glory and Bushwacked both seem fine at 5.9. The routes that I have done on the Java wall, both Caffeine and Espresso, were solid, so I would assume that wall is in general. Twist and Crawl was waay too chossy for me to be sure if it will stay at 5.11a or not, but it felt stout when I did it (choss factor i'm sure). Dogma, at 11b with three stars is solid IMO. Geezer, 12a is solid, though Guillotine, 10b to its right, may be a litttle soft. The two routes I have actually tried in the cave, The Gimp and Crash and Burn, at 13a and 12d respectively, both seemed rather solid, though I only tried Crash once and the Gimp a small handfull of times. Crash, however, definitely deserves all five stars, the last hard move is sweet. OH, and Axis of Evil is hard, though I also never sent that... so many climbs so little time. Hope this rambling is the beginning of some helpfull feedback.
peace
ike
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roughster
Jul 3, 2004, 3:09 AM
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roughster moved this thread from General to Regional Discussions.
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socalbolter
Jul 3, 2004, 3:11 AM
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thanks, ike.
next?
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thinksinpictures
Jul 3, 2004, 5:03 AM
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I just moved out here and haven't done much local climbing yet, but I've been meaning to get out to Malibu once I find a reliable partner. I don't yet possess the physical ability to comment on anything in the 12 range, but once I get one some of the routes I'll be sure to offer what feedback I can.
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asandh
Jul 3, 2004, 6:17 AM
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:)
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pbjosh
Jul 3, 2004, 8:04 AM
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I've only climbed at each crag a little, here's my feedback. Sorry I don't know a lot of route names.
Malibu:
The area that is up and left after the first over the water traverese, I did several under 11 routes that all seemed fair. I got on an overhanging 11b arete that seemed fair. I thought Johnny Can't Lead was like 10+ probably, definitely felt soft. I thought The Drifter was 5.11c max.
Echo:
Most stuff I've been on feels fair. I think Kamikaze feels fair. I did an 11a overhanging dihedral thing that starts up a ramp that felt fair. I can't remember most of the other stuff but don't remember any big complaints about ratings. You might inquire with antimatter (dunno how often he's on this site), he's climbed a sh*tload of the 9's and 10's up there and could probably comment on those if you want.
I don't know if you care for feedback on Frustration, but I think that the warmup that everyone uses just left of Narcissist is about 11b, I've heard people calling it 11+ but didn't seem so bad. I don't feel particularly qualified to offer grade opinions on the rest of the stuff there, I'm kind of new to climbing at those grades. I imagine you heard, though, that Chris did the far right route and named it Dismembered and called it 14a.
Likewise I dunno if you want feedback on the Quarry but I did a route there that I was told was called "Rocky" - something like 18-20 bolts, 150 feet or so (intermediate rap station), that was purported to me to be 12a, that I felt was 11a or 11b, so maybe there was some confusion about which route we were on (had a couple of slabby mantle sections, had some old pin scars on it in sections, kind of follow some shot holes, was over on the right side of the crag), as it felt much much easier than that, at least to me.
Anyways, kudos for seeking as much feedback as possible :)
josh
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vivalargo
Jul 4, 2004, 1:03 AM
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Hey, Louie:
What makes rating climbs at Malibu and Echo difficult is that these areas are local crags on which locals visit till they can´t stand it anymore. Over a period of time, 5.12 becoms 5.11C every time.
I´ve found the ratings to be pretty fair at both areas, but I always rate something in terms of the effort required to fire a given route, not how it felt after three or fifty laps. Drifter, for example, becoms much easier when you have the whole sequence wired, but how many folks do you know who have flashed it? And for my money, Urban Struggle -- possibly the most attempted 5.12 in So Cal -- is likely closer to 5.12B than 5.12A.
At Echo, I consider the Stain and Dip Stick to be pretty solid examples of 5.12c, and contrast everything against those routes. I haven´t done any of the real testpieces at Echo, but of the routes I´ve done, each seems to hold up pretty well owing to th strength endurance needed to do same, and the fact that I am never in shape these days since I´m on my Muni instead of the gym.
JL
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mreardon
Jul 4, 2004, 1:11 AM
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Well put Mr. Long. Having climbed there a bit over the last decade, I would stand by most of the original ratings compared to other areas. By most accounts, I have rarely heard anyone say the ratings are "soft". I think your guidebook pretty hits them dead on excepting the occasional lettergrade or two, which in most cases is dependent upon the individual's abilities moreso than an overall consensus.
By the way, nice job on the guide. :D
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pbjosh
Jul 4, 2004, 1:38 AM
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In reply to: I´ve found the ratings to be pretty fair at both areas, but I always rate something in terms of the effort required to fire a given route, not how it felt after three or fifty laps. Drifter, for example, becoms much easier when you have the whole sequence wired, but how many folks do you know who have flashed it?
I onsighted it, and 12a is beyond my onsight limit. I have climbed sport routes in the past year at Malibu, Echo, Williamson, Frustration Creek, The Quarry, Queen Creek, Joshua Tree, New Jack City, Owen's River Gorge, Clark Canyon, Red Rocks, Mill Creek Canyon (Utah), Ceuse (France, duh), Orpierre (France as well), Lehn (Switzerland), and I'm sure other places that I've forgotten. I generally don't project stuff beyond 3-4 attempts and I generally don't repeat routes. I find that at most of those places I can onsight 11b most of the time, occaisonally 11c. I can generally redpoint into the mid 12's. I standby saying that The Drifter is 11c tops, and possibly 11b. Here are some seriously classic routes at world standard crags to compare it to, in my opinion:
Zagreb (6c / 11b) - Ceuse -- Roughly equivalent
Medicine Douce (6c+/11c) - Ceuse -- Roughly equivalent
Super Micky (7a+/12a) - Ceuse -- WAY harder
Women (7a+ / 12a) - Ceuse -- WAY harder
Satanic Mechanic (12a) - Jtree -- Unbelievably harder
Jane's Addiction (11b/c) - Jtree -- Roughly equivalent
Bebop Tango (11a) - Jtree -- Definitely a little easier
Cookie Monster (12a) - Yos -- Worlds harder
How about if you lined up a group of climbers and let them both try to flash The Drifter and Leave It To Beaver (on TR)? The Beaver is so much harder it isn't funny.
How about comparisons to Williamson's best known routes in that range? It falls much more in line with KAOS, Guilty of Being White and Labrynth than with Furry Pump or The Invisible King (which is probably a little soft itself)...
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pbjosh
Jul 4, 2004, 1:50 AM
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In the end grades don't matter that much, having fun matters more, but I feel like there are huge disparities around southern california, and agree that new routes and new crags are much more likely to have ratings errors...
Whatever you want to call it, The Drifter is pretty fun.
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badass
Jul 4, 2004, 2:25 AM
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I knew grades were soft out west! :deadhorse:
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socalbolter
Jul 4, 2004, 2:26 AM
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just to settle the whole "Drifter" dilemna, i would call it 11c also. Most all of the holds are positive and there are good shaking rests. Some of the routes i bolted there just before the guide were rated based on the input from others who climbed them after me. I should have sought more opinions and compiled a broader consensus.
what do you think the routes to the right of it should be rated?
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vivalargo
Jul 4, 2004, 4:15 AM
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The funny part of this discussion is that none of these routes are hard anyway. Everyone who has written in is a working stiff or has a life. Jeeze, Leave it to Beaver was pretty casual when we first did it in 1978, but we were climbing 300 days a year back then. Leave the ratings soft and make us feel like we still got it. I don´t, so I can´t fool myself but I´m not trying to.
JL
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fluxus
Jul 5, 2004, 3:25 AM
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In reply to: What makes rating climbs at Malibu and Echo difficult is that these areas are local crags on which locals visit till they can´t stand it anymore. Over a period of time, 5.12 becoms 5.11C every time.
two things: first, remember that this discussion about grades was started by me, after visiting the power wall one time, the blocks one time and the ghettho one time. so its not about some burrned out local diss'n routes he knows too well. Second, it seems that the kind of grade DEFLATION that you are talking about has NOT happened in these areas. These areas appear to be locations of significant grade INFLATION.
In reply to: Urban Struggle -- possibly the most attempted 5.12 in So Cal -- is likely closer to 5.12B than 5.12A.
Compare Urban Struggle to 12Bs in other areas such as Too Young to be Human or Bee Hive (both in American Fork) and it does not stand up. It does not even come close. Even on-sight, the climbers knows everything they want to know about Urban Struggle from the ground except the depth of individual pockets. There are no suprises here and the movement is very straight forward for the grade. The route is also too short to require any kind of fitness. Nonetheless its a good route and deserves its reputation as a multiple star 12a.
As for the fact that none of the routes under discussion here are hard, this is true. Nonethe less I think it would be doing the local comunity a service to downgrade the routes under discussion so that the local grades are more in line with national standards. Further, Socal has a large population of new climbers, it would be nice if they could develop accurate impressions of what diffferent grades mean at their local crags.
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vivalargo
Jul 5, 2004, 3:58 AM
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Flexus--
That grave, faux academic tone is hilarious, as is the crisp diction and neatly ordered logic. But I´m not buying a bit of it because your cause was never about ratings -- of that we may be sure.
In old Gestalt groups what you´re trying to pull off here was called the ¨Top Dog¨strategy. You might profit from looking into it.
JL
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fluxus
Jul 5, 2004, 6:04 AM
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In reply to: That grave, faux academic tone is hilarious, as is the crisp diction and neatly ordered logic. But I´m not buying a bit of it because your cause was never about ratings -- of that we may be sure.
I deny that my tone is grave but I come by my "Faux Academic tone" honestly. Have pitty on me because I do talk that way in real life. :( I guess the academic de-programming thearpy is'n working, I wonder if I can get my $1200 back? Or maybe all I need is a few beers with some low brow types. When are you free John? :wink:
As for my motivation not being about grades I think you are too cynical. If I wanted to be a top dog in the climbing comunity I never would have moved to L.A. Don't worry your and MR's status as big fishes in this small pond isn't threatened by me! :)
cheers!
p.s. - To any readers who find the tone confusing, this post is meant in a spirit of good humor.
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bellatoris
Jul 5, 2004, 6:29 AM
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I agree several of the ratings around the dam in Malibu may be a little soft, but Echo, and Malibu for the most part, seem fair. I find that climbers with excellent technical skills who have not been climbing much lately are the ones to get consistently spanked at both areas. And those with more power than technique fair well here, esp. in Malibu. At Willie or NJC, most of the routes are fairly cruxy, sometimes devious, yet seldom as pumpy as Malibu or Echo. Take a month or two off and revisit either area if you still disagree.
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bellatoris
Jul 5, 2004, 5:44 PM
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JL: did holds on the stain break, or was it misrated? Definitely felt way hard at 12a.
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gds
Jul 5, 2004, 6:03 PM
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In reply to: The funny part of this discussion is that none of these routes are hard anyway. JL
Oh! that I'll ever be able to say that about 5.11's :(
G. 5.8 S. :D
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ikefromla
Jul 5, 2004, 6:47 PM
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In reply to: The funny part of this discussion is that none of these routes are hard anyway. JL
Also, to say that Urban Struggle does not stand up when compared to other 12b's is pretty humorous IMO. It is certainly harder than Furry Pump, referred to in this thread as solid for 12a. It is also more difficult than Guntower, Rappin Boyz, or Short Dog, all considered solid 12a at Mt. Charleston. Then again, maybe that's just me. I've climbed Urban Struggle a bunch and I still have to yell on that thing.
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vivalargo
Jul 6, 2004, 12:21 AM
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[quote="fluxus"][As for my motivation not being about grades I think you are too cynical. If I wanted to be a top dog in the climbing comunity I never would have moved to L.A. Don't worry your and MR's status as big fishes in this small pond isn't threatened by me! :)
Do you really think people will read this kind of put down and not understand what you´re up to? You blow into town, let it be know through your various lists that you´ve flashed all the standard weekend warrior routes, then you go on to call them all vastly overrated compared to real crags elsewhere. Then the final dig, that I´m a big fish in a small pond. This last post was even more of a howler than the first.
Of course LA is a small pond, climbing wise. Why do you think we all used to spend our summers in Yosemite? And so far as being a big fish--well, you have to climb alot more than I do these days to be considered any kind of fish. I had my day, and it wasn´t here, it was in the Valley, and that was 25 years ago.
When I said that none of these routes mentiond by Fluxus were hard, I meant hard in the sense of world class hard. If Joe Kristy (56) and I can go to the Drifter area and put in four or five burns on each of those routes, or run laps on Urban Struggle, Hole Patrol et al, rest assured that those routes are not world class, or even close to it. Malibu does have some really hard routes, like Max Ghetto and others in that area, but Fluxus focused on the trade routes that any serious climber can get up.
Lastly, the whole idea that So Cal climbers don´t understand ratings is a strange one, seeming that in large part, 5.9 (Open Book), 5.10 (The Blank and others), 5.11 (Chingadera and Valhalla), 5.12 (Pisano Overhang), and 5.13 (Hangover) were firmly established here in So Cal.
Is So Cal a sport climbing paradise. Absolutely not. There´s not enough good, steep rock. But aside from the trade routes Fluxus shat on, there really are some pretty hard routes up at Echo, out at Josh, at New Jack City, Williamson, and so forth. I trust that after you go out and dust off a few dozen of the 5.13 routes at those areas you´ll check back in with us per rating accuracy. There´s simply no glory in dumping on the trade routes in the name of setting us all straight.
JL
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kalcario
Jul 6, 2004, 12:50 AM
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*Lastly, the whole idea that So Cal climbers don´t understand ratings is a strange one, seeming that in large part, 5.9 (Open Book), 5.10 (The Blank and others), 5.11 (Chingadera and Valhalla), 5.12 (Pisano Overhang), and 5.13 (Hangover) were firmly established here in So Cal.*
Sorry but establishing or repeating those routes (where is the 5.13 called Hangover?) will give you no insight into how modern steep sport routes are graded.
*there really are some pretty hard routes up at Echo, out at Josh, at New Jack City, Williamson, and so forth. I trust that after you go out and dust off a few dozen of the 5.13 routes at those areas you´ll check back in with us per rating accuracy. There´s simply no glory in dumping on the trade routes in the name of setting us all straight.*
How do you know they compare to the 13's at other U.S. crags? Have you done them or any 13's anyplace else? He happens to be right, grades are cheaper here than many other crags, not to mention Europe, which is where the real rude awakening awaits if you think L.A. sport grades are up to par.
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fluxus
Jul 6, 2004, 1:19 AM
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In reply to: Do you really think people will read this kind of put down and not understand what you´re up to? etc etc etc . . . . . . There´s simply no glory in dumping on the trade routes in the name of setting us all straight.
I both love and fear you, you are the most baitable climber I have ever met! If I were a Brit I'd keep this going for months, but I see you are growing angry so my yanking your chain ends here. I'm a bit surprised that you couldn't find the intended humor in that last bit you quoted from me. I am going to assume that you are the only one looking to see my posts as a put down of local climbers.
by the way I did not "dump" on a single route. The only comment about quality that I made was that Urban Struggle was a good route, so read more carefully and chill baby.
-cheers
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