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korporal
Jul 7, 2004, 3:24 AM
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Note: I have never even led outside so I have never tried any of the soon to be mentioned techniques. I am a Big Wall Therorist (If you relate better to Pete's "language")
It seems that in almost all other forms of climbing one of the goals is to have gear and techniques that you can use in many situations (trad draws, reverso, self rescue). From reading Pete's articles and posts it seems that most if not all of the gear and techniques have one purpose. (dedicated lead 'biners, permenate 2:1 setup, croll only for asending etc.) Or is this the nature of the aid beast? I have never even done trad so I may be way off.
Note: Please put all personal issues aside if you are gonig to post in this thread. I have seen many threads about him become flame fests.
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lambone
Jul 7, 2004, 3:45 AM
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This is the nature of Pete.
I fear for any up and coming aid climber, trad climber, lead climber that stumbles upon his writting and relys soley upon those rants to gain an education.
Pete is not here so I won't slam him too much. But I assume that you found it very obvious that Pete likes to hear (or read) himself talk.
I'm not as experinced as him, but I have done my fair share of aiding, and I don't buy all his dedicated this and dedicated that jargon.
On a wall everything inevitabley gets used up or mixed up somewhere along the pitch and often you need to improvise with what is available. I have climbed with some folks that follow Petes teachings word for word and I swear when they don't have their dedicated this or that to use they don't know their head from their ass and take half the day to deal with the situation....sometimes as simple as setting up the anchor.
On the otherhand, on a wall you have alot of shit and good organization is critical, so what ever helps you to achieve this goal is good. You often have alot of pieces of equipment that serve one purpose only (poop tube being a prime example). So yeah, it all adds up and obviuosly Big Wall climbing in tradtitional style is a heavy (not to mention expensive)adventure, especialy if you are doing it alone. This April I carried all my shit down off a small wall in Yos in one shot and I shit you knot the bag must have weighed over 80 pounds. Many times she tried to follow the path of least resistance with me straped in.
ok...what were we talking about again?
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addiroids
Jul 7, 2004, 3:47 AM
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In reply to: Note: I have never even led outside so I have never tried any of the soon to be mentioned techniques.
Get back to us in a few years bro. And yes, some stuff just needs to be dedicated on a wall or stuff floats everywhere!
VERSATILE
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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lambone
Jul 7, 2004, 3:50 AM
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oh yeah....versatility....
My Gri-gri is the most versitle piece of equipment when i solo a wall. I belay with it, rap with it, jumar with it, adjust my position at the bivi with it, it catches me when I fall and I love it.
I also use my clothes bag as a pillow. And my swiss serves many purposes from surgical tool to eating utensil.
But really THE most versitile piece of equipment on a wall goes whithout saying.....
DUCT TAPE!
Biners come and go, you try to save some big lockers for the anchors, and most of the time you can, but when you run out you just make do with what you have got.
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holdplease2
Jul 7, 2004, 4:15 AM
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Hey -
Fear for me, folks, because I learned 90% of what I know about Aid from reading Pete's posts and others on the internet...then swore to forget 59% of it after my first wall.
Regarding versitility of gear vs dedication of gear...consider the following
Any locker will work...but maybe you want a ball-lock biner for your haul bag to be sure that it won't unscrew from vibrations or rubbing against things...but you only have two ball lock biners. Don't end up with them both integrated into your anchor.
Your directional pully for hauling needs a locker...but maybe it hangs funny on a diamond or pear shaped locker or a small locker...but an oval locker works great...make sure you keep it with your protraxion or whatever device you use.
Your backup knots need a locker...but a small locker will fill up with bights if you need to keep your rope close to you due to wind, flakes, etc...better have a big locker ready, why not use a dedicated one with easy action and a large basket? Don't end up with this one trapped somewhere in your hauling crap.
You may use biners on the ends of your daisies to attach to gear...but a notch on the biner may annoy you when you are moving your daisies on and off of crowded peices or anchors. Dedicate a couple of notchless biners for this task and you won't have to worry.
If you drive pitons, you will want dedicated biners on the cable that you use to remove them from the wall...they get groved, shock loaded, and beat to crap. Now you wouldn't want one of these "beaters" in your anchor, would you?
Just like with anything else...at first, any peice of gear will do the job. But after you send a few projects, sport, trad, whatever, you will find that some peices of gear do the job better than others...like the rope end biner of your quickdraw or the type of biner you rack your cams on. These are often treated like "dedicated" gear, right?
One of the examples of specialized equipment mentioned was a croll for ascending vast quantities of fixed line...but it will also serve nicely as a backup ascender if you drop one of your regulars on pitch 17 of a 26 pitch route...
So...when you actually start to climb outside, you will find that you are either a "dedicated" gear person or a "make do and do fine" person. Either way, if you are not organized, are not knowledgable, and are not able to improvise, I mean Really improvise, no amount of dedicated gear will save you from yourself.
When you want to start aid climbing, you will quickly learn how hard it is to find a mentor if you aren't a 25 year old female...nobody enjoys a 6 hour belay duty, believe me. Heck, even if you are a 25 yof, it isn't always easy, I bet.
Yes, I have too much time on my hands, thank you.
-Kate.
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ricardol
Jul 7, 2004, 6:13 AM
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damm .. that was a long post -- with bold letters and everything ..
.. good thing to know that pete's soul lives on .. :-) ..
.. there is lots of good information for the beginning aid climber in pete's posts .. but the most important thing that you can do is think for yourself and decide what systems work best for you, --
-- ricardo
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flamer
Jul 7, 2004, 6:50 AM
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In reply to: .. there is lots of good information for the beginning aid climber in pete's posts .. but the most important thing that you can do is think for yourself and decide what systems work best for you, --
Probably the most intelligent thing I've ever seen you say....
Everybody has a different way of doing things, ask them, listen too them, try it out, throw away what you don't like...next thing you know you'll find your way.
That being said I'm tired and not going to get into my way. :)
And Kate...get a life. :wink:
josh
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atg200
Jul 7, 2004, 1:58 PM
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personally, i believe that pete's systems are a really bad way to learn because they are so gear intensive and over complicated. get a copy of long and middendorf's how to climb big walls, and learn the old fashioned way. after you can get up a few things and understand how the system works, look back at pete's systems and see if any are write for you.
i use a few things from his posts, but in general i tried most of them 2-3 times and abandoned them.
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timstich
Jul 7, 2004, 2:09 PM
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In reply to: Hey - Fear for me, folks, because I learned 90% of what I know about Aid from reading Pete's posts and others on the internet...then swore to forget 59% of it after my first wall.
Life is an ongoing unlearning process.
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solo
Jul 7, 2004, 2:15 PM
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I do not think it such a bad way to learn. I definitely learned a lot. Championship pig wrestling, alpine butterfy, load release knot, rappeling with heavy load or cleaning with gri-gri come to my mind as topics that saved me some grief.
But to make good use of the info in his posts you have to think for yourself and simplify. Just use the basic principles to devise systems that will work for you. If you blindly followed all requirements of "the better way" you would spend like 10 years just completing the gear checklist without even getting on the rock :)
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holdplease2
Jul 7, 2004, 3:26 PM
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Visiting family in indiana right now, can't help myself. :)
-Kate.
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lazide
Jul 7, 2004, 3:36 PM
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In reply to: I do not think it such a bad way to learn. I definitely learned a lot. Championship pig wrestling, alpine butterfy, load release knot, rappeling with heavy load or cleaning with gri-gri come to my mind as topics that saved me some grief. But to make good use of the info in his posts you have to think for yourself and simplify. Just use the basic principles to devise systems that will work for you. If you blindly followed all requirements of "the better way" you would spend like 10 years just completing the gear checklist without even getting on the rock :)
If you can get past petes over the top, confrontational style, he does have a lot of good information. The biggest problem with his info is that it is best applied towards hard aid soloing on grade VI climbs -which he isn't really very clear about.
Load release knots, 2-1 hauling ratchets, etc? You should never need to bring enough gear/food/water on a grade V to justify them - it will just slow you down (and therefore require more food/water!)
But hey, I am just a BWT too - at least until August.
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tim
Jul 7, 2004, 3:45 PM
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A lot of Pete's tips are practical applications of Chongo Chuck's systems (the 2:1 comes to mind). Some others (riding the pig) are logical extensions of what anyone who's ever tried to rappel with a heavy pack quickly discovers -- you DO NOT want that thing on your back, chest harness or no.
Personally, the hauling techniques are something I'd encourage anyone on their first wall to avoid, because I'd encourage anyone doing their first wall to try getting up a Grade IV or V aid climb in fast, light style. Learn how to short fix, wear shoes that you can free climb in, and crack jug whenever you can; don't focus on specialized techniques and equipment at first.
I haven't done any Grade VI climbs yet (Half Dome is coming up this fall, though), so I don't have anything useful to say about them. But you don't have to go slow and haul a ton of stuff just to get up an aid climb, that much I can tell you. The more you free climb and the less crap you take, the more fun it is. Aid doesn't have to be a death march. It's more fun if it isn't, in my opinion (having tried it both ways).
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timstich
Jul 7, 2004, 4:10 PM
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In reply to: Visiting family in indiana right now, can't help myself. :) -Kate.
That's more deprogramming than unlearning.
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rockcandy
Jul 7, 2004, 4:22 PM
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All of Pete's 'ideas' are from Chongo's book. Pete edited the book I believe. If holdplease2 had written one 'BETTER WAY' in the post I would think it was Pete! By the way, I think hold2please would have an easier time finding a partner than holdplease2.
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dingus
Jul 7, 2004, 4:36 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I do not think it such a bad way to learn. I definitely learned a lot. Championship pig wrestling, alpine butterfy, load release knot, rappeling with heavy load or cleaning with gri-gri come to my mind as topics that saved me some grief. But to make good use of the info in his posts you have to think for yourself and simplify. Just use the basic principles to devise systems that will work for you. If you blindly followed all requirements of "the better way" you would spend like 10 years just completing the gear checklist without even getting on the rock :) If you can get past petes over the top, confrontational style, he does have a lot of good information. The biggest problem with his info is that it is best applied towards hard aid soloing on grade VI climbs -which he isn't really very clear about. Load release knots, 2-1 hauling ratchets, etc? You should never need to bring enough gear/food/water on a grade V to justify them - it will just slow you down (and therefore require more food/water!) But hey, I am just a BWT too - at least until August. |
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dingus
Jul 7, 2004, 4:38 PM
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In reply to: The biggest problem with his info is that it is best applied towards hard aid soloing on grade VI climbs -which he isn't really very clear about. Load release knots, 2-1 hauling ratchets, etc? You should never need to bring enough gear/food/water on a grade V to justify them - it will just slow you down (and therefore require more food/water!)
Well... I think many budding big wall wannabe's talk themselves into aid climbing out of fear of runnouts. They don't believe they can ever truly master the lead game of free climbing so they begin to look toward aiding as a medium where they can lead but never be 'too runnout.'
Along those lines anyway.
Rude awakenings for all! Take all the stress and anxiety from a summer of cragging, distill it down to its essence, and then take a shower in it... that's aid climbing.
Many people embrace Pete's techniques as a way to address that underlying fear... fight fear with technology.
Which of course works to one extent or another in our sport. But it never replaces the nut, if you get my drift. None of Pete's techniques will get us up a hard and dangerous lead, none of them. For that resource we have to look within. Pete's stuff will not teach you how to dick it out when every rational bone in your body screams to be off the wall and back on the couch. And all the extra weight may actually encourage you to bail. (which may just be the best thing for all around, depending...)
DMT
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epic_ed
Jul 7, 2004, 4:46 PM
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In reply to: ... None of Pete's techniques will get us up a hard and dangerous lead, none of them. For that resource we have to look within. Pete's stuff will not teach you how to dick it out when every rational bone in your body screams to be off the wall and back on the couch. And all the extra weight may actually encourage you to bail. (which may just be the best thing for all around, depending...) DMT
Ain't that the truth. I'm still looking within. I keep running into a scared lillte boy who wants to go play softball instead of lead the next pitch.
Ed
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coylec
Jul 7, 2004, 4:52 PM
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The benefit of dedicated everything is that you always have exactly what you want where you want it. Holdplease2 is right-on the money: there is going to be gear that works better for particular applications. If you don't have dedicated gear, you end up having to make due.
Then the problem starts to spiral. Lambone is absolutely correct when he writes that stuff gets mixed up. It will float around. You start taking biners from other groups ... need a locker for the haul, take it from the anchor lockers. need another anchor locker, use your backup locker; need a backup locker, take it from the ledge; need one for the ledge, take it from the pooptube; need one for the poop tube, take it from ???
The beauty of dedicated biners is that you (nearly) always have the optimal biner for the application. The ugliness of the system is that you have lots and lots of stuff .
It really just comes down to a matter of organization. Pete's approach is to take everything he'll need (including a shower and coffeepot) . His approach breaks the climb down into a nearly infinite number of very easy and do able steps. For each step, he knows exactly what he wants ... and this system allows him to have exactly what he wants. Others favor a fast and light approach. The lighter you go, the more multi-tasking your gear has to do.
Regardless of your approach, the real importance of the dedication system is not in assigning particular biners to particular tasks, rather it is to ensure that you have the number of lockers that you'll need ... you will never have enough locking biners, even if you bring 30 of them. They're like candy -- you think have a bag full, but when you want to eat a big handful, you realize you've only got two left.
Lambone makes a critical observation, one I'm going to paraphrase here: the system can't save you -- you have to know what's going on. You have understand the theory behind the applications. Sure, use PTPP's pulley system, but know how to set it up in a variety of ways, not just the configuration that's posted. It's a mechancial device not magic. If all you know is the applied stuff that's been posted, you're going to get yourself into trouble.
coylec
stupid job searching ... have to stay in cel phone range. unemployment isn't fun when you can't enjoy the free time.
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lambone
Jul 7, 2004, 5:19 PM
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In reply to: Lambone makes a critical observation, one I'm going to paraphrase here: the system can't save you -- you have to know what's going on. You have understand the theory behind the applications. Sure, use PTPP's pulley system, but know how to set it up in a variety of ways, not just the configuration that's posted. It's a mechancial device not magic. If all you know is the applied stuff that's been posted, you're going to get yourself into trouble. coylec
On that note, the best thing that I ever did to add to my Big Wall climbing bag of tricks was take a 2 day (16hour) intensive self rescue class. Invalueable for training on problem solving with ropes and equipment. How many different ways can you get the job done, how many pieces of gear can you leave out of the system and still get the job done, and how quick and effeciently can you do it. These are the fundementals of self rescue...Aid climbing is just a nother application, with the added benefit of being less stressfull.
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iamthewallress
Jul 7, 2004, 5:33 PM
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In reply to: On that note, the best thing that I ever did to add to my Big Wall climbing bag of tricks was take a 2 day (16hour) intensive self rescue class.
I'll second that.
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ricardol
Jul 7, 2004, 6:28 PM
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.. dlike dingus and a few others said .. pete's systems wont get you to the top ..
.. aside from chongo's book (which pete's info comes from) .. there isn't another source of information that can teach someone the systems they need to solo a big wall .. --
.. without his posts you'd either
a - need a mentor to teach you aid soloing
b - need to pay someone to teach you aid soloing
.. i think its pretty cool that the information exists (and requipment) such that someone can now solo a big wall without having any bigwall experience.. its not for everyone .. but if you want it, the info is there.
-- ricardo
.. is it just me.. or does anyone else find it funny that alot of people commenting on the merits of pete's posts have yet to really put them to the test on a grave VI wall? --
stuff that worked for me, and i'm keeping in my toolbox
* 2:1 ratchet
* grigri cleaning (though i'm going to try to clean with 2 jugs again just to compare)
* docking tether
* frog ascending
* prussik re-belay
* grigri soloing
* butterfly for hauling knot (in middle of rope)
* dedicated lockers for master PP (i even use this for trad leading)
* dedicated lockers for all sorts of other stuff (haulbag, backup tie in, etc)
.. these aren't pete's inventions (they have been around for ages) .. but i learned them from his posts .. (they aren't in the john long's book, or in freedom of the hills) ..
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lambone
Jul 7, 2004, 6:39 PM
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that is not at all true ricardo.
I soloed my first walls long before I ever heard of pete, chongo, or this web site.
...and you can bet your ass I didn't pay anyone to teach me...
you can learn everything you need to know from the long/middendorf book and a little intuition.
needless to say I'm glad I lived through it!
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iamthewallress
Jul 7, 2004, 7:03 PM
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In reply to: a - need a mentor to teach you aid soloing b - need to pay someone to teach you aid soloing
Untrue. It's not rocket science if you know how the gear works in the first place. It's just not. If you'd done some partnered climbing (perhaps this is what you consider 'mentoring'?) before soloing, maybe it would seem less monumental? I'm not saying that the stuff you read wasn't helpful...I just don't agree that without Pete or a hired guide reasonably skilled folks couldn't figure it out.
Like the others I soloed before I read rc.com, met Chongo, heard of Pete, etc. I had been on a wall with a more skilled partner, mentor, if you will, and read Middendorf. No one taught me about soloing. I thought about. Tried it. Survived to work out the bugs (and there were/are many).
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megableem
Jul 7, 2004, 7:03 PM
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