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joemor


May 6, 2002, 12:00 AM
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A STUPID ALTERNATIVE TO BOLTS.
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well where do i start,

some people say i think too much i would have to agree. being a trad climber i like to climb clean and leave no trace of being there. this is where my dumb idea spawned from.

its basically this: take any sport route and picture it in your mind, overhange dont work tho. you simply lower a bit of static down to where each bolt is and anchor it securily to the top, at the end near the bolt you tie a fig 8 follow through and use this to clip your draw to. and there it is, of course you dont do it where there are bolts, i gues youd do it at a spot you might top rope and want to lead, or if there is a dodgy bolt you want to have good pro there. then again you could just buy a trad rack.

is this the begining of clean sport?????


i think not, but maybe.....


joe


sistersboulderingarea


May 6, 2002, 12:21 AM
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This interests me.

I can see one flaw, this does not solve the problem of routes that you can't WALK around the top to set up your static line. You still have to CLIMB to the top of those.


spank_spank


May 6, 2002, 8:42 AM
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If you climb clean, I guess you don't use chalk, do you? Or shoes, that leaves rubbers spots on the rock. Or use cams or nuts, that alter the rock over time. Or remove vegetation when a route is put up.

There are a lot worse things out there than bolts.

[ This Message was edited by: spank_spank on 2002-05-06 08:42 ]


natec


May 6, 2002, 9:51 AM
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Spank Spank,

How do cams or nuts alter the rock?


spank_spank


May 6, 2002, 9:59 AM
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Over time placing a cam in the same position in a crack or whatever, the rock will or can be altered. By chipping and so forth. Also I have seen a trad climber take a "zipper" where cams have start popping out of the rock from the climbers end and belayer end. Luckily he did not deck, but I did have to cover my head because when the cams came loose it brought out rock with it. When a cam or nut gets stuck, you break out your nifty nut tools and you try and pry it out, this can bring damaged to the rock.

I am not saying this always happens, but trad climbing does alter the face of the rock.


jt512


May 6, 2002, 7:27 PM
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So, let's see, by the time I get to the top, I have to climb around, say, 12 ropes? Yeah, riiight.

-Jay


tenn_dawg


May 6, 2002, 8:43 PM
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Hmmm, So on a 50 foot climb you would have to have 1 rope at at least every 8 or 10 feet. Lets do some addition... One 50 foot rope + One 40 foot rope and so on. It ends up being 150 feet of rope. At least 100$ for dynamic, which you would HAVE to use.

For a 100 foot climb you would have to have a Whopping FIVE HUNDRED AND FIFTY FEET of Dynamic rope cut into pieces 100 ft, 90 ft, 80 ft...

Good try man. But it ain't gonna work.
Travis

edited for clarity



[ This Message was edited by: tenn_dawg on 2002-05-06 21:47 ]


joemor


May 8, 2002, 1:26 AM
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like i said its a stupid alternative!!!!!

tho it mioght be good to cover one bolt that is dodgy, or add a clipping point to a run out route, or on those half trad half sport routes, you could make a short trad section all sport.

and spank spank...... have u ever trad climbed? nuts and cams do about as much damage as the wind does, not much that is.... and as for the guy u saw zipper a cam at both his end and the belayers...... it comes down to bad placement on the users behalf, perhaps he should have used a hex which puts far less outwards force on the rock when weighted.

anyways again ill say as the topic says its a stupid alternative, but in certain instances it may be usefull..... tho i doubt ill ever use it. it might be ok on high boulder type climbs, up to 15m? maybe?



joe


johnhenry


May 8, 2002, 1:35 AM
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Hey Joe,
I applaud you for thinking out of the box. This is a pioneering spirit. If you are interested in bridging the gap between sport and trad consider Removable bolts aka Ball and spoon cams.
Rock on,
John


gekolimit


May 8, 2002, 2:53 AM
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I'd just like to say, there are two reasons why i don't trad.
- No money
- Sport climbing allows one to concentrate more on the climbing allowing one to climb harder, more challanging routes.


joemor


May 8, 2002, 3:18 AM
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im notcondeming sport climbers, i climb sport every now and then (theres not many sport routes in australia), i was mearly thinking of different ways to approach climbing, maybe on virgin rock first assents ect before u bolt etc.

i know a few spots i want to climb where trad is out of the question and toprope is to boaring eg http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/listArea.php?AreaID=2783

dangeling a couple of bits of static down the 10m or so would mean i could lead it safely and i wouldnt have to lay money out to bolt an otherwise dull climb that ill probably only want to do once. also after i do one line i can move it and do another, rather than bolt again, saving time and money.

i was talking to crux clipper and he came up with the idea of tieing fig 8s regularly down a length of static and clipping to that meaning u use less rope, though im not sure how alot of knots would weaken a rope any 1 with any info on knots weakening ropes post the link.

cheers

joe


joemor


May 8, 2002, 3:27 AM
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oh yeah

you can use static because you climb like normal lead with belayer and a dynamic lead rope ect you just clip to the anchored ropes where you would normally clip to pro or bolts.

joe


miagi


May 8, 2002, 4:24 AM
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I just got lost because it was a run-on hehe. I think I get what your saying but I wouldnt do it.


pattray


May 8, 2002, 5:12 AM
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I think Tod Skinner did something very close to what you describe on a possible 5 14 in Hueco (I think) before he got the go-ahead from the park service to bolt it. He used only one static line though.
For the most part he had a static rigged with figure eights to clip into and big bros were used to hold the rope close in and inline with the route. Its good to see someone thinking out ways to improve climbing.
Maybe if someone comes up with a clean way to sport, the park service may open up some areas to this type of climbing, I say keep up the good thinking.
Pattray.


spank_spank


May 8, 2002, 5:35 AM
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Joemor - I am not going to get into a big debate on this, but trad climbing does alter the rock over time. This is truth. You cannot deny it.

And we all know that bolts alter the rock. It just drives me crazy when I hear people say they climb clean and leave no trace. Thats a bunch of crap unless your climbing completely naked and soloing. Without chalk.

And yes I have done a little trad in my years of climbing. I really don't care for it. Sport and boldering is much more enjoyable to me, but that is irrelevant.


dougiec


May 8, 2002, 6:43 AM
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Tenn-dawg,

no reason that it's got to be dynamic rope. Bolts are kinda well known for bing static in their nature (you hope). Also don't see any reason that you can't put several knotts into the one peice of rope. You should be able to do it with just the one rope coming down from the top.

A cunning plan - even if it needs some tweaking to work smoothly, how many ideas don't need reworking and ironed out? The best way to find out if it's practical would be to go and try it. Joemor?

"Obstables are those frightful things you see when you take your eye off your goal." Mr. Ford said that you know. Why shoot down an idea without trying to see if it's workable?


Dougie



jumaringjeff


May 8, 2002, 6:53 AM
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I've actually used the technique where you tie multiple loops in a static rope every 10 ft. or so and clip into those as you go. It works quite well and it's easy to rig. The only problem, pointed out earlier, is that you have to be able to access the top of the climb prior to actually climbing the route.


-jj


verticallaw


May 8, 2002, 9:14 AM
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there are routes out here in bc that have some interesting bolts. I agree that bolts damadge that rock but I also agree with Spank Spank that other forms of protection do as well. So like I was saying there are a couple of routes on the island that have been bolted with a "self drilling bolt" this means no drills needed but it also means that the hanger must be atatched to the bolt with another bolt ( sound complictaed but it is not.) in order to sport lead these routes you must bring the hangers and bolts with you and atach them while on lead. This is not easy but niether it trad. When you clean the route you take your hangers with you. The established bolts are virtually impossible to see and unless trad climbers take to climing with hangers and wrenches and machine bolts they would be un-able to clip there as well. I have done these routes and thought that it was a great idea. I still am searching for a supplier for these bolts. Good idea or bad idea who knows.

Climbing with a socket set
mike


joemor


May 8, 2002, 8:43 PM
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im trying it on the 11 of april, two days that is..... and ill post back to tell u how it went.



jeo


pelliott


May 8, 2002, 9:25 PM
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This is nothing new. It is used all the time where bolts are not allowed. Fixed ropes are anchored in at various places on the route and butterfly knots are tied at intervals along the rope with biners in them to clip into. The down side is the cost and effort needed to set it all up. You have to buy the aid gear and the static line. I agree though that this is definitely an alternative to hacking up the rock with bolts.


gekolimit


May 8, 2002, 9:27 PM
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joemor...sorry i didn't mean to snarl at you. I didn't understand.

Your line idea is actually quite brilliant. There is this crack climb in singapore that is originaly trad. But the climb becomes mossy reall quikly and people can't place gear propaly...hence don't climb it, which in turn only speeds up the mossing effect. So there is this shinny new ancor hanging above a crack....useless. Tell me how it went....i'd like to try it on this crack.
ps...it's the crack in my photo album.


upfreak


May 8, 2002, 10:45 PM
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A good idea... but like it was said, "it ain't gonna work."


joemor


May 9, 2002, 3:23 AM
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i couldnt wait, i tryed it and it worked fine took a fall and all..... and it held sweet, i just used the one line with fig 8s tied up it, its not the same as clipping bolts but it sure beats top rope. i used it on the place i linked to earlier, its only bout 10-12m so i used the static i use to set up tr, didnt cost me a thing.... the only time i wished i had more ropes was when i wanted to traverse....

anways it works and i will be using it from time to time when the situation calls.

joe


phil_nev


May 9, 2002, 8:50 AM
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Joe buddy, ur a good mate and an awesome climbing buddy, but ur attitude towards sport routes is getting a bit boring. As you know, i havnt been climbing long and dont feel confident leading trad. A sport climb allows me to push my limits more. U know at werribee there are nice new bolts everywhere and at this stage in my climbing carrer i would much rather fall on one of those. I love sport climbing, i can concentrate on killer hard moves father than fiddling around with a nut or cam (which i dont have)... A

As for your idea it could work, i think placing gear on rappel is called a pinkpoint. My question is, why didnt you just lead it from the ground up? If you TRUST your gear placments i cant see any reason why not to do it that way. And seeing as you are a die hard trad climber at heart, u may wanna check out some aussie climbing history. The real die hard trad climbers severly frowned upon placing gear on rappel, they saw it as bad form.
Neways, thats it for me, hope i didnt offend u bud....
later....


sezumpf


May 9, 2002, 10:17 AM
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I actually like Joemor's idea. If we didn't have so many routes in my area I would really consider doing this. It's a cheap alternative to bolting.

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