|
|
|
|
sarcat
Jul 29, 2004, 5:27 PM
Post #1 of 19
(2845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 1560
|
I'll admit that this is going to get a T2 or T3 assesment, but I'm asking this quesiton because I'm fairly new to trad climber and have 'seen the light' of the dark side....
I read this post about a trad climb and a person wanting to put rap. achors at the top because walk offs were VERY discuraged. He got somewhat flamed over it.
In reply to: You obviously aren't paying attention to the locals, so let me just say this about your idea: It's BAD BAD BAD. You have a gap in your knowledge. You are a beginer and need to learn more.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=64691
Later in the post It was said that all the guys who climbed it trad "still arn't up there" so they got down. As bilco sad there was a gap in his knowledge. The thread didn't fill that gap other than
If they didn't walk off they had to leave gear. What did they leave?
So the question is this:
If you leave stuff, what/how much do you leave? At what point do you say "heck with the rules I'm not leaving $30 to rap down" so you walk off? And what if you physically can't walk off?
rap. with your rope around a horn or chicken head?
a webbing with a rap ring?
a nut with a biner?
a cam with a sling?
two nuts with a cord-a-lette and biner?
your whole SRENE top rope setup?
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Jul 29, 2004, 5:36 PM
Post #2 of 19
(2845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
usually its a tree with a rap station or a slung chockstone nearby.
always carry spare webbing that you can use to make a rap station. this is why spectra isnt always good- cant tie it. i carry 9/16" supertape (about 10') and a quicklink for rap kits. i'll supplement it with gear if necessary.
if i think i'll have to make more than one rap station- i'll take more webbing and links.
if no rap station and you have to use the tree, make sure its sturdy and green (alive!) and has a good root system and use that.
i've rapped off a tree that wasnt so good, so we sacrificed a soon to be retired sling, carabiner and a stopper to back it up.
for rappel purposes, i'd leave probably two pieces and a cordlette fashion rap station if the rock was bomber and solid. if not, three. i'd do my best to leave stoppers only. i'd pick a tree first, though...natural, strong, and free!
also, if a walk off is available and theres no rap station...walk off. as a general rule, walking off is always preferable to rappelling. its safer and usually faster (although there are exceptions to this).
|
|
|
|
|
taino
Jul 29, 2004, 5:38 PM
Post #3 of 19
(2845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 5371
|
In reply to: At what point do you say "heck with the rules I'm not leaving $30 to rap down" so you walk off? And what if you physically can't walk off?
Biners, nuts, cams, slings, webbing, cordalette, etc: price varies
Climbing again tomorrow: priceless
If there truly is no way to walk off (such as being stuck in the middle of a wall where you can't advance and you can't downclimb), build a solid anchor; one that you'd feel comfortable rapping from. Use whatever it takes, although obviously one would rather leave hexes than cams. Gear is replaceable. You're not.
I carry two pieces of webbing and a couple of rap rings whenever I go climbing; it's part of my standard gear. If I have to build some sort of rap anchor, I've got most of the fixings already.
T
|
|
|
|
|
sarcat
Jul 29, 2004, 5:51 PM
Post #4 of 19
(2845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 1560
|
In reply to: If there truly is no way to walk off (such as being stuck in the middle of a wall where you can't advance and you can't downclimb), build a solid anchor; one that you'd feel comfortable rapping from.
Thanks. So on the top of every trad climb there are 1 of 3 things????:
1. Walk off
2. Something to sling
3. Left gear
If its #3 ONLY why wouldn't a set of rap. anchors be OK even if not put up by the FA's?
|
|
|
|
|
sspssp
Jul 29, 2004, 5:54 PM
Post #5 of 19
(2845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 1731
|
In reply to: If its #3 ONLY why wouldn't a set of rap. anchors be OK even if not put up by the FA's?
Because it only takes one guy with attitude to chop them.
|
|
|
|
|
taino
Jul 29, 2004, 6:01 PM
Post #6 of 19
(2845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 5371
|
In reply to: In reply to: If there truly is no way to walk off (such as being stuck in the middle of a wall where you can't advance and you can't downclimb), build a solid anchor; one that you'd feel comfortable rapping from. Thanks. So on the top of every trad climb there are 1 of 3 things????: 1. Walk off 2. Something to sling 3. Left gear
Might be wrong of me, but I'd assume so. Either those, or a bunch of skeletons from people getting stuck up there. :roll:
In reply to: If its #3 ONLY why wouldn't a set of rap. anchors be OK even if not put up by the FA's?
That's up to the ethics of the area, I guess. I know that at the Trapps, there are several rap anchors up now that weren't there during FAs. That's not for me to decide.
T
|
|
|
|
|
petsfed
Jul 29, 2004, 6:03 PM
Post #7 of 19
(2845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 8599
|
In reply to: In reply to: If there truly is no way to walk off (such as being stuck in the middle of a wall where you can't advance and you can't downclimb), build a solid anchor; one that you'd feel comfortable rapping from. Thanks. So on the top of every trad climb there are 1 of 3 things????: 1. Walk off 2. Something to sling 3. Left gear If its #3 ONLY why wouldn't a set of rap. anchors be OK even if not put up by the FA's?
Maybe the route hasn't been repeated much. Maybe you just can't find the rap anchors. Maybe its 1, but it looks unlikely. Maybe what there is to sling is gone now, or so dubious you don't like it. Also, sometimes it isn't a walk-off per se. Its a downclimb. If you're not comfortable with that, don't attempt the route.
|
|
|
|
|
markc
Jul 29, 2004, 6:14 PM
Post #8 of 19
(2845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2481
|
I don't think that there is any one response that someone can offer. The consensus I've seen is to leave the smallest amount of gear possible to safely rappel. The situation will largely dictate this. Sometimes it's a sling on a natural feature. It could also be a good sized chunk of your rack.
If you're attempting to retreat on a very minimal anchor, backing it up for the first person down isn't a bad idea. However, I'd let the primary anchor carry the entire load so you can gauge its performance. I have to say I'm very thankful I haven't been in this situation more than a handful of times.
|
|
|
|
|
markc
Jul 29, 2004, 7:03 PM
Post #9 of 19
(2845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2481
|
In reply to: In reply to: So on the top of every trad climb there are 1 of 3 things????: 1. Walk off 2. Something to sling 3. Left gear If its #3 ONLY why wouldn't a set of rap. anchors be OK even if not put up by the FA's? Maybe the route hasn't been repeated much. Maybe you just can't find the rap anchors. Maybe its 1, but it looks unlikely. Maybe what there is to sling is gone now, or so dubious you don't like it. Also, sometimes it isn't a walk-off per se. Its a downclimb. If you're not comfortable with that, don't attempt the route.
Most guides I've used go over descent in a general way. Before you start climbing, you should have an idea of how you're going to be getting back on the earth. You should also have an idea of what to do if your method of descent is no longer viable. This could happen if someone has chopped the anchor, rockfall has wiped it out, you're unable to complete the route, etc.
As petsfed suggests, sometimes the descent is the crux. Often several routes in an area will share one common rappel. I wonder if the route in question in the original thread had any neighboring routes with permanent anchors. I'd be interested to know if the OP in that thread asked the one local he spoke with about other options of descent.
Deciding unilaterally to place additional bolts or anchors in an established area (especially a traditional one) isn't often well-met. If that is the method of placement in an area with a well-established ethic, you can almost be certain it will be dealt with in much the same manner.
mark
|
|
|
|
|
ricardol
Jul 29, 2004, 7:25 PM
Post #10 of 19
(2845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
|
the most gear i've left behind while bailing off a route is 2 nuts , and a sling + a rap ring..
.. equalize the nuts, put the rapring in the middle and off you go ..
.. what sort of place discourages walk offs yet wont install rap stations? --umm weird .. there must be some large stuff you can use as natural rap stations.
-- ricardo
|
|
|
|
|
tedc
Jul 29, 2004, 7:46 PM
Post #11 of 19
(2845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 5, 2003
Posts: 756
|
In reply to: If its #3 ONLY why wouldn't a set of rap. anchors be OK even if not put up by the FA's?
If you wan't to or feel the need to construct a bomber rap station more power to you.
|
|
|
|
|
outdoorsie
Jul 29, 2004, 8:26 PM
Post #12 of 19
(2845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 15, 2003
Posts: 302
|
Here's a little advice that was given to my husband and I by an Exum guide. This is only for EMERGENCY purposes and nobody should try this without serious trad experience.
If you have to, build your rappel on one piece of BOMBER gear (a nut that isn't going any where, or a solid tricam, whatever), but BACK IT UP for the first climber that goes down. When I say BACK IT UP, I don't mean incorporate that piece into an equalized anchor. I mean, build an equilized anchor seperate from the piece and run the rope through it such that the rappel is not weighting the back up anchor. Send down your heaviest guy, and watch the piece he's rappelling off of. If the piece doesn't move and looks solid, the last climber can clean the back up anchor and rappel leaving only the single piece.
The important part is that the back up anchor must not be weighted. It is there only to use if the piece you want to leave fails. Watch the piece for movement and the rock around it as everybody else rappels off of it, and you'll feel ok with the rappel when you go.
Our guide told us about a group of climbers he knew climbing a new route Denali. They had to turn around and decend on one of the top pitches. One of the climbers set up the rappel using one piece and started to go. Another climber stopped him and said "Are you crazy?? I'm not rappeling off one piece of gear!" The first climber looked at him and said "I count 32 pieces of gear on our rack, and there are 30 rappels ahead of us. You are going to rappel off one piece."
|
|
|
|
|
sarcat
Jul 29, 2004, 8:34 PM
Post #13 of 19
(2845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 1560
|
I wasn't trying to debate the Yes or No of putting in a rap station. More how do you rap when the only option is leave gear? Just leave gear?
I make decent $$ but if I did as many trad routes as I do sport in a day that could lead to some serious cash on each outing.
My guess is more popular routes have a rap station. Ones where a set of nuts or even a single nut have to be left are less popular.
|
|
|
|
|
ricardol
Jul 29, 2004, 8:37 PM
Post #14 of 19
(2845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
|
my experience would tell me that the # of routes where you'd have to leave gear to get down are minimal .. (scarce)
.. i've been trad climbing for 18+ months now and the only time i'd have to leave gear behind was when we bailed on a route ..
-- ricardo
|
|
|
|
|
markc
Jul 29, 2004, 8:55 PM
Post #15 of 19
(2845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2481
|
In reply to: I wasn't trying to debate the Yes or No of putting in a rap station. More how do you rap when the only option is leave gear? Just leave gear?
Do you have any specific examples in mind? If you can share a specific route, maybe someone with personal experience can fill in the picture a bit more. As Ricardo said, I haven't run into many routes in well-established areas where leaving gear would be mandatory. I don't do a lot of single-pitch traditional routes, but most I've done feature some walk-off, a neighboring route you can rappel on, or an access climb. If everyone had to leave gear, why wouldn't you find it when you topped out?
Most of my multipitch experience is at Seneca, where many routes don't feature established anchors. It's typical to top out on a particular route and make your way to a common rappel station. Bailing mid-route can mean leaving protection or rappelling from natural features. On a trip to the Daks, the descents were part walk-off, part rappel, and not always straight-forward. Getting up is only half the climb.
|
|
|
|
|
saskclimber
Jul 29, 2004, 9:12 PM
Post #16 of 19
(2845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2004
Posts: 548
|
It's nice to not see sarcat getting flammed for a question like this for once. Maybe there's hope for our souls afterall :P
|
|
|
|
|
sarcat
Jul 29, 2004, 9:18 PM
Post #17 of 19
(2845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 1560
|
The route in the thread linked in my origional post is similar to a set of routes in the Unitas, UT. They are all gear with no achors.
There is a tree to rappel off of or so I've heard. If the tree is non exixtant or mank when I go there next it'll mean doing #1 or #3. I guess I'll find out and be prepared to leave what ever it takes.
|
|
|
|
|
thegreytradster
Jul 29, 2004, 9:40 PM
Post #18 of 19
(2845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2003
Posts: 2151
|
This thread has wandered and amplified a little from the original question, but can be summed up this way.
1. established crags have standard descent/rappel procedures. It is up to you to determine and make sure you understand them before starting up.
2. New permanent anchors at established areas should be installed only with consideration for the local ethic and consensus opinion.
3. A length of appropriately camoflaged color webbing and a small knife should be standard kit for alpine, back country or rarely visited areas. Maybe a few rap rings also.
4. If you are confident you know what you are doing, make an effort to leave rap stations cleaner/stronger than you found them. Take out the garbage, (dead slings).
5. In an emergency the only rule that applies is, Get down alive! how much gear you have to leave is totaly dependent on the situation and your ingenuity.
|
|
|
|
|
paulraphael
Jul 29, 2004, 11:10 PM
Post #19 of 19
(2845 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2004
Posts: 670
|
In reply to: If you have to, build your rappel on one piece of BOMBER gear (a nut that isn't going any where, or a solid tricam, whatever), but BACK IT UP for the first climber that goes down. When I say BACK IT UP, I don't mean incorporate that piece into an equalized anchor. I mean, build an equilized anchor seperate from the piece and run the rope through it such that the rappel is not weighting the back up anchor. Send down your heaviest guy, and watch the piece he's rappelling off of. If the piece doesn't move and looks solid, the last climber can clean the back up anchor and rappel leaving only the single piece.
i've never had to resort to this on a regular trad route, but it's standard practice in the alpine world. i usually take a small rack, but thirty or more feet of webbing (and a little knife). i sometimes bring a couple of angle pitons and knifeblades for retreating, too, since they're cheap on ebay and more solid than anything else. probably 9 out of ten of my alpine raps have been off a single slung horn or flake (backed up as you described) but in places like the gunks where speed isn't critical (and it's never more than a couple of raps to the ground), i play by the book and make sure everything's redundant.
in trad places i've visited, there's always either been anchors, big trees, or some obvious feature to sling. never had to leave gear.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
