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gblauer
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Jul 6, 2004, 2:40 PM
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Ok, I volunteered to lead what appeared to be a 5.10ish sport lead. By the time I got to the 4th bolt it was clear that it was a 5.11. The falls were clean, the bolts well spaced...but I froze at the 4th bolt and didn't finish the climb. I could do 2 more moves after my last bolt, but was afraid to do the third move necessary to get to the fifth bolt...I was AFRAID that there were no positive hands at the fifth bolt and didn't want to take the fall. In short...I wimped out. How do I get over my fear of falling? (I take lead falls in the gym on overhanging stuff...this particular climb was dead vertical). Further, how do I push myself to climb beyond my limit? Whenever I climb I am ALWAYS in control. Any help, input, guidance, suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Gail
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jakedatc
Jul 6, 2004, 3:33 PM
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hey, Depends on how the routes are bolted where you climb.. if they are done well and the person worked it out so that the bolts are protecting the crux's and near a decent clipping hold then you can be confident that near a bolt will be a decent hold for the grade.. i tend to break up a route into pieces between bolts.. or if a bolt isnt in a good place to rest then between places to rest with clipping a bolt being an extra move in the sequence you've taken falls in the gym so the falling part doesnt seem to be the problem.. it's possibly more the fear of failing... ie the holds get worse and you don't make it. you say you're always in control.. but when the holds get crappy then you lose some of that control and have to kind of deal with what you're given? or my third thought is that you havent taken many falls outside so you're not sure what to expect... fear of unknown (i'm going through this due to only taking a few short falls outside) also were you with a belayer you've been with a long time and has caught bigger falls? could be you were nervous about that too good luck! Jake
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ecocliffchick
Jul 6, 2004, 3:35 PM
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If you can figure this out - let me know too. Just the other day I decided to lead a 5.11 that I've climbed before - only because I had to because I was out with someone who doesn't lead. I got to the fourth or fifth bolt right before the crux and then just kept climbing up two or three moves to a move that requires a deadpoint to a small crimp and I kept downclimbing back to the bolt rather than completing a 'non-static' move. As I was hanging at the bolt contemplating what to do, some friends arrived who climb harder than me, so I decided to play the scared girl and let the tough guys complete the route and retreive my gear. Damn it - I hated myself for doing that. If you figure out how to get past the fear - let me know...
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missedyno
Jul 6, 2004, 4:12 PM
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i've been trying to get past that fear for a while now. instead i've decided to comfortably follow/TR harder stuff, and my leading grades have improved as well. i don't know. i get so freaked out when i'm leading i end up not enjoying the route so much. time off from injuries hasn't helped too much either.
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pbjosh
Jul 20, 2004, 6:12 PM
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It's all raw numbers, maximum time leading at your limit will make you comfortable at your limit. It's also easier when you get on stuff that's vertical to overhanging and not full of big ledges to hit. Falling on air can become fun, falling on rock should be avoided.
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jt512
Jul 20, 2004, 6:23 PM
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In reply to: Ok, I volunteered to lead what appeared to be a 5.10ish sport lead. By the time I got to the 4th bolt it was clear that it was a 5.11. The falls were clean, the bolts well spaced...but I froze at the 4th bolt and didn't finish the climb. I could do 2 more moves after my last bolt, but was afraid to do the third move necessary to get to the fifth bolt...I was AFRAID that there were no positive hands at the fifth bolt and didn't want to take the fall. In short...I wimped out. How do I get over my fear of falling? (I take lead falls in the gym on overhanging stuff...this particular climb was dead vertical). Further, how do I push myself to climb beyond my limit? Whenever I climb I am ALWAYS in control. Any help, input, guidance, suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Gail There is a whole book devoted to this subject: The Rock Warrior's Way by Arno Ilgner, and a whole forum on this website dedicated to discussion of Ilgner's approach to mental training for climbing: Warrior's Way Forum. Get the book and join the forum. -Jay
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mother_sheep
Jul 20, 2004, 6:47 PM
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Think about the climb and making the moves, not the fall. May be easier said than done but once you're able to shift your focus, you will climb harder. At least that's what worked for me. GOOD LUCK!!!
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gblauer
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Jul 20, 2004, 9:05 PM
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Jay...I have the book and I have made contact with the author. I am trying to take one of his seminars...Will keep you posted. "There is a whole book devoted to this subject: The Rock Warrior's Way by Arno Ilgner, and a whole forum on this website dedicated to discussion of Ilgner's approach to mental training for climbing: Warrior's Way Forum. "
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rvega
Jul 23, 2004, 12:26 AM
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I'm a down climber too. I try and retry the move below the clip but I almost always bail if I'm too scared. Personally I get no joy from falling. But its okay for me...I'd rather wimp out than hurt myself. And yet I know this limits my abilities. What I try to do is, after bailing, have someone else do the climb, set up a TR and then reattempt the move on top rope. Then pull the rope and do it on lead immediately afterwards. If you know the move isn't a problem on TR, then pyschologically the lead will be easier because you already know you can do it without falling.
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maculated
Jul 23, 2004, 3:27 AM
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Gail, et all I think this is a real problem with women in particular. If I spend any extended amount of time climbing with guys, I note that I end up looking like a great big wussy. In my TR's and in person, I often joke that its the doing of my ovaries trying to preserve me for childbearing. But seriously, I think we are wired to react to fear a little bit more strongly than men. But, since I suffer from the downclimb syndrome, too, I've done a lot of thinking on the subject. I have NEVER taken a lead fall. I just will not commit for the hell of it. Icommit ONLY if I know its going to go. Recently I was on a trad lead that was WELL below pushing my limits but it was on foreign terrain (chimney, steep, off-width) and I froze up. I hang dogged on pretty much every piece after a certain point because it became secure feeling that way. I ended up reading Rock Warrior's Way that night because I was disgusted with myself. I was negative-self talking myself with eight people looking up and listening to this (I have no idea why they all didn't just go climb other stuff), and I ran out of appropriate gear and had to back clean because I was sewing it all up. Are you actually afraid of the fall? Or are you just afraid? That seems to be my problem. The day after this bad showing, I was determined to take lead falls. I did it on slightly less than vertical rock, too, simply because that's what I'm likely to encounter. Falling is NOT that big of a deal. I cannot stress doing this as much as possible if you've got a safe spot to do it. I came off the experience ready to lead 10c (except I hurt my leg so it was game over). If you're on sport, you're REALLY golden. If you can do a move above the bolt you've clipped, just jump. All of this is after four years of contending with the problem, and I'm 100% sure that once my knee heals, I'm going to surge in my lead head and abilities now that I've harnessed the actual PROBLEM of my climbing freak outs.
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danabart
Jul 23, 2004, 1:56 PM
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Well, there's no reason that you can't get better and still maintain control. I did it by slowly and methodically working through the grades: 5.5, 5.6, 5.7 etc. I got to 5.10 and very rarely fell, and I like to attribute that to a solid foundation of climbing. Eventually to go past 5.10 and get into 5.11/5.12 I had to specifically train and accept a few more falls, but even then, I hardly ever fell. I don't say this to boast, just to illustrate the fact that if you're patient and really consolidate your ability at a specific grade - by doing lot and lots of climbs at that grade - you should be able to move up to the next grade without too much difficulty. Of course, many people will say that if you don't fall you're not learning and not pushing yourself, and they are right. But it is all a matter of degree. You certainly won't get to 5.11 by climbing 5.6, but it would be a waste of time to fall off of 5.13s all day. Many climbers today start climbing in gyms and never get on anything easier than 5.9, and get to 5.10 very quickly. Their strength is way ahead of their technique and their leading head. I spent 4 years doing 5.5-5.9 - lots of it - so my leading head was in shape when I ventured onto the 10s. Goodluck. Be patient.
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aimeerose
Jul 29, 2004, 5:36 AM
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I don't think this is a In reply to: problem with women in particular . What a cop-out! I am more bold that my husband- I put the draws up most of the time, I lead more regularly on trad gear, and I soloed a route today when he clipped a bolt. It's all personal and just how bold you are as a person. I'm more outgoing than he is. Maybe that has something to do with it. I don't know. Anyways, you should never feel bad about TRing something if that's what you want to do. If you feel bad about it, then you need to figure out why. If you feel like you are wimping out by having someone else clean your gear, then you need to figure out how to clean it yourself. Stick-clip past that crux section if you need to- at least you did it yourself. I got on a 13a last week that was way above my head and long (Loser at Maple Canyon, for those of you who know it.) No way was my hubby going to rescue me! He just patiently belayed me and I sticked through it. I finally got the rope up there and he happily top-roped it! No big deal, just some pain from hanging out in my harness that long. I think you ladies just need to climb with people who won't rescue you (as long as you're safe.) You will learn self-reliance very fast!
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overlord
Jul 29, 2004, 9:08 AM
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suck it up and go for it.
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aimeerose
Jul 29, 2004, 4:40 PM
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Yeah, esentially that's what I'm saying too, I was just trying to be nice about it. :wink:
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tavs
Jul 29, 2004, 7:16 PM
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Gee, it's nice to hear that some women out there do not have a problem with pushing themselves, but I fail to see how it is at all helpful to others to simply spray about your abilities without offering any indication as to why you don't have the problem. "Suck it up" is rarely helpful and often demeaning. And yes, I know women who have no problem pushing themselves on sport or trad, so it's not a universal female problem, but my experience tells me that more women than men have this issue. So yeah, we're generalizing here. I struggled with pushing myself on sport routes for a while, and still struggle sometimes on gear. The biggest factor holding me back was a (probably irrational) fear of falling. I got beyond that by a combination of taking falls myself, but also by watching lots and lots of people go for it themselves (and frequently fall). It was the latter that I think helped me the most. I watched friends who were serious about sport climbing and about getting stronger project routes, work out moves, fall between every other bolt, all without injury, and it gave me more confidence to start doing the same myself. It also helped to have specific objectives: as I got stronger, I started picking out routes are increasingly difficult grade, routes that I really really wanted to climb. Most I tried on TR first, then started working them on lead. I was so invested in these routes--in wanting to send--that my fears were submerged beneath that desire. And so I fell, plenty, which only helped increase my confidence. Also--when you're getting on something that might be hard for you, don't be afraid (or ashamed) to sit at the bolts, rest, then work out the next moves refreshed. As you start pushing it on sport lead, you are going to end up projecting. Onsighting is awesome, by at least my experience with sport climbing is that it's rare at one's limit. Good luck!!
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aimeerose
Jul 30, 2004, 1:58 AM
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I'm sorry you saw my comments as "spraying" about my abilities. Maybe you didn't read close enough. My point was, that no one was going to rescue me off that route, so I had to finish in myself in some way, shape or form. My point was to get over the fear of leading, you should put yourself in the position where you are self-reliant and therefore can not "wimp-out". If this means leading easier climbs until you get more confident, then so be it. Eventually your head will catch up with your abilites and you will be able to push yourself. I think the most detrimental thing to learning to push yourself on lead is knowing you have someone who can save your ass.
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pbjosh
Jul 30, 2004, 5:50 AM
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Aimee is right on, it's a kind of macho thing to say and it sounds bad coming from a guy perhaps but there isn't some magic cure new way of looking at things cool perspective shifting trick. Lead more. Climb more. Get stronger. Try not to fall on low angle terrain. When climbing something where the falls are clean, focus on the climbing, not the potential for a fall, the fear will handicap you. Everyone has some level of fear, I certainly get gripped leading often enough but if you can look down and know that the fall is clean and the gear is good, just keep climbing. Climbing yourself into a situation of "I have to do the move or I'm going to fall" is a good way to take some falls and pull off some hard moves while above your protection, both of which are good for you. When I start contemplating the fall on a route, I try to kick myself, look back at my hands and just make the next move.
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rvega
Jul 30, 2004, 9:10 PM
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In reply to: I don't think this is a In reply to: problem with women in particular . What a cop-out! I am more bold that my husband- I put the draws up most of the time! Ummmm, while I don't think the word "problem" is appropriate, I do think that this is an okay generalization. I definately don't think it's a cop-out either. I do think, Aimeerose, that you may be an exception here, and good for you. Plus if you are leading 13a's maybe your experience level is a factor here. However, my own personal experiences suggest that woman in general are less likely to lead at their abilities edge due mainly to fear of falling or injury and maybe due to self-confidence issues as well.
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jt512
Jul 30, 2004, 10:09 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I don't think this is a In reply to: problem with women in particular . What a cop-out! I am more bold that my husband- I put the draws up most of the time! Ummmm, while I don't think the word "problem" is appropriate, I do think that this is an okay generalization. I definately don't think it's a cop-out either. I do think, Aimeerose, that you may be an exception here, and good for you. Plus if you are leading 13a's maybe your experience level is a factor here. However, my own personal experiences suggest that woman in general are less likely to lead at their abilities edge due mainly to fear of falling or injury and maybe due to self-confidence issues as well. There is little question that, in general, women are more hesitant to lead or to fall than men. Making such an observation is not copping out. Using the fact that you are a woman to avoid leading at your limit is. -Jay
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rvega
Jul 30, 2004, 10:39 PM
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In reply to: There is little question that, in general, women are more hesitant to lead or to fall than men. Making such an observation is not copping out. Using the fact that you are a woman to avoid leading at your limit is. -Jay Absolutely. No excuses. Rather this is a simple observation about our reservations and struggles. I think its great that we can admit to these issues and then have a dialogue about them... as a way to help eliminate them not reinforce them.
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climbinggirl33
Aug 1, 2004, 3:43 AM
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Repetition is key - climb a lot, lead a lot, and yes fall. I used to freak any time I lead, but after a whole season leading I am more in a zone and less concentrating on breathing because of my nerves. That being said, if my head isn't there = sometimes the only thing that works is coming down and pleading for some bad jokes, anything to get me out of my own head. OK - and I also talk to myself. Sometimes it's just: "Make the move B" I also look down at that last piece/bolt and tell myself I know how to fall if I don't make the move - which while a tad negative is actually comforting. Funny thing - I am so much better outside - but whenever I lead in a gym I get nervous all over again. Yeah - I'm a freak. B
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rock_diva
Aug 2, 2004, 10:58 PM
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Bouldering has helped me become more bold leading. How? I think bouldering is like taking the crux part of a route and climbing just that section. You learn to push your climbing up a level, and you learn to make dynamic moves when needed. You also fall a lot and get more comfortable climbing without a toprope. When I lead and am at the crux, I think of it as a boulder problem. A few powerful or technical moves and then you're at your next protection.
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missedyno
Aug 3, 2004, 2:15 AM
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i'm pushing myself bouldering right now... i feel as i push my limits, leading doesn't seem so far away. i guess i'm just taking the long road/scenic route to sport leading at my ability...
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crazygirl
Aug 3, 2004, 2:22 PM
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I don't know, I can't really view the fall while bouldering in the same way as fall on lead. And even after taking a couple of falls on lead, the fear is still there.
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granite_grrl
Aug 3, 2004, 3:08 PM
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In reply to: I don't know, I can't really view the fall while bouldering in the same way as fall on lead. And even after taking a couple of falls on lead, the fear is still there. I feel the same. Maybe because I'm climbing on steeper stuff while bouldering so you fall away from the rock. Other reasons could be the ground fall poential/hitting ledge potential on certain routes. Falling to the ground with a pad is vastly different. I have found that if anything bouldering has diminished my lead head. I've been doing much more bouldering than routes this past couple of months, and I've certainly found "if you don't use it, you loose it" with a lead head (both sport and trad). But I decided to get back out doing routes and I'm building back up to where I last winter on my road trip.
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