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boltdude
Aug 5, 2004, 6:43 AM
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The Beginners forum seems particularly useless and dangerous. Useless - because most every substantive question falls into other forum categories. Dangerous - full of bad advice, not surprising since few non-beginner climbers frequent the forum.
Most questions in the Beginners forum should not even be asked online, they should have already been answered by reading basic climbing texts. Many questions reveal dangerous lack of knowledge that should be answered by qualified guides & instructors in person, not over the internet.
Actually useful questions - such as "what's a good beginner shoe?" - fall into other forum categories (that one is Gear Heads since shoe models are constantly changing).
Having a Beginners forum like this, and one so prominent as to be the top forum, is just plain dumb. The only way to do it intelligently would be to have only "qualified" climbers allowed to respond - and that gets into a quagmire of issues.
Climbing is dangerous. Anyone climbing needs to take responsibility for their own actions - responsibilities such as reading the basic books on climbing. Having such a Beginners forum reveals a lack of wisdom on the part of the climbing community.
I say eliminate the forum.
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 5, 2004, 7:14 AM
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Agreed.
Eliminate it and replace it with a FAQ.
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rockn_j
Aug 5, 2004, 7:35 AM
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I dont agree
Having a person ask a stupid question wont make him do something stupid. But giving that person an answer might stop him.
Beginners forum post go to the main page like all the others and inevitably get replies from more than qualified climbers and a concensus (or somethimg close to it :wink: ) is usually reached.
The beginners forum might be annoying every now and then (Will I die if I do this), but I think it does serve a valuable perpose.
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 5, 2004, 7:46 AM
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Stupid questions and stupid replies is the norm for all of the forums.
Placing questions in the beginners forums significantly ups the odds of getting a wrong answer.
It seems like the beginners forum gives people permission to be stupid. After all "they are beginners?"
The real world is not so forgiving.
Put questions where they are more likely to be answered correctly.
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rrrADAM
Aug 5, 2004, 8:05 AM
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No offense... But if users take the time to read the forum descriptions they can get the info they need, by just reading through it a bit. Beginners have beginner questions, and if they take the time to read b4 posting, they would usually find the answer.
That also applies to posting topics in the correct Forum.
(See next reply) :wink:
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rrrADAM
Aug 5, 2004, 8:06 AM
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rrrADAM moved this thread from General to Suggestions & Questions.
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rrrADAM
Aug 5, 2004, 8:14 AM
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I think more experienced climbers should spend more time in the Beginners Forum sharing their experience. Those who are experienced are usually easy to spot, and those who talk out the side of their neck are even easier to spot.
The Beginners Forum is for beginners to ask questions... Unfortunately, many times some clueless beginners think they know enough to answer them.
If more experienced climbers got involved in these threads, BS would quicly be shut down. Also, new climbers may not even know where to look for the answer, so we'd just get the same questions over and over, even more than we do now.
(Example) How many times will you answer "Why are their 2 slots in an ATC?" if it always shows up in General ??? It would get burried very quicky there, but in Beginners less quickly, and if a user actually takes the time to read prior to hitting submit, they often could find the answer.
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cgailey
Aug 5, 2004, 8:15 AM
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I will agree that there is a gross amount of incorrect and dangerous info on here and that anyone basing climbing decisions on info they have received online from anonymous people is just asking for trouble. I can imagine that the intent of the forum was good, but as boltdude has pointed out, it doesn't serve its purpose well. There is no way to regulate the crappy info that is being sprayed other than by hapless flamings by those in the know.
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tisar
Aug 5, 2004, 8:44 AM
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I really don't agree. Just pretend that most people asking "stupid" questions are noobs - but not stupid (exeptions given).
I'm new to climbing myself. Tried not to ask those questions but followed consequently the discussions about different topics like building up ancors and stuff. "Beginner" questions often lead into deep arguments where lots of knowlegde is spread.
You can't prevent bad advises, wrong suggestions and false conclusions. But in summary not the given awnsers are what's essential but the questions that come up! They lead to closer investigations and often are even able to get experienced climbers into scrutinizing their own behavior.
After all that ancor/knot/belay/whatever discussions I wouldn't walk out and try to send El Cap next day. Not even would I build a top rope ancor (now, perhaps I will) without further advice given by someone who knows exactly what he's doing. But I think now I'm able to whatch with a different eye and to ask the right questions. At least I can judge if that person might be just a smart__s with a liability to overestimate his own capabilities or if he really does know what he's talking about.
As I started reading on rc.com I was impressed by the friendly but serious and sometimes resolute tone in which the dumbest questions were handled. It might not prevent the last idiot from getting hurt but I think that there are many reasonable people out there who are getting aware what climbing is about.
Please keep on writing! You'll never know when the one question comes up where perhaps all YOUR knowledge gets questioned.
Thanks to all that patient authors out there!
- Daniel
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rrrADAM
Aug 5, 2004, 8:49 AM
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Good post 'tisar'.
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overlord
Aug 5, 2004, 11:26 AM
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beginners should definitely stay.
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atanarjuat
Aug 5, 2004, 3:18 PM
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I'm grateful for a beginner's forum. I've found it very helpful.
The trouble with rock climbing is that there's a prevailing insular attitude that if you don't already know something, you don't deserve to. I've found it very difficult to advance in the sport because I've had questions I didn't know how to get answered.
The experts all seemed to be fortunate enough to just fall into the sport because they grew up in the right places, or had the right parents or made the right friends. Trying to get in from the outside is surprisingly difficult; you often hit a wall of people saying, "Don't try this at home, kid."
Sure, there are probably lots of guide books that explain climbing technique. It would be safe and easy to just deflect beginners away to the them. But seriously, when you're taking up a sport, do you look for the comprehensive user's guide first? Do you even know how to find one? Who learned soccer or football like that? Books can raise even more questions ("Ummm . . . what does that picture mean?") and no one trusts the driver of a car who learned his technique solely from a manual.
And the beginners aren't going to sign up for a lesson (assuming, again, that they can find a teacher) every time they have a question, either. No one wants to waste money like that.
So if you're stuck on the outside of the circle, it's very difficult to get anywhere. In the Beginner's Forum, at least you can get a discussion. And it's usually evident from a user's profile and quality of answer who is more trustworthy. We're not looking for the Gospel truth in the forum, anyway-- just some help.
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calfcramp
Aug 5, 2004, 3:49 PM
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I say keep it. I'm new and found that it was quite useful early on.
Climbing is dangerous, of course, but I think that anyone who decides to climb accepts that fact. If somebody reads a thread or two about building an anchor, or how to belay or whatever then decides to head out thinking they're now 'safe', I think they're asking for trouble. So be it. It takes two to climb. If not one, but TWO people decide they know enough about what they're doing, they just might be right.
As interactive as the forum is, it is still just like picking up a magazine or a book and reading about technique. Sure, the sources are likely more reliable in books and mags, but that still doesn't stop the person from misunderstanding something and getting themselves into trouble while trying it out.
I appreciate the fact that the experienced climbers don't want to be/feel responsible for someone hurting themselves using advice they read on RC.com. But in the end, all climbers are responsible for their own actions. If a climber doesn't have the sense of self preservation to realize that they should learn from experienced climbers, that's their problem.
Maybe put a quick disclaimer page on the beginner forum where you need to click 'OK' before you can proceed the the board? Just a pain in the butt I guess...
Enough about that, I have a question: I bought a used Gri-gri and it says that it locks automatically. Does that mean I can let go of the rope? And, which are the best shoes for mantling?......
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the_pirate
Aug 5, 2004, 3:59 PM
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In reply to: The trouble with rock climbing is that there's a prevailing insular attitude that if you don't already know something, you don't deserve to. I've found it very difficult to advance in the sport because I've had questions I didn't know how to get answered.
In reply to: The experts all seemed to be fortunate enough to just fall into the sport because they grew up in the right places, or had the right parents or made the right friends.
In reply to: Trying to get in from the outside is surprisingly difficult; you often hit a wall of people saying, "Don't try this at home, kid."
In reply to: But seriously, when you're taking up a sport, do you look for the comprehensive user's guide first? Do you even know how to find one? |
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happiegrrrl
Aug 5, 2004, 4:02 PM
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I Like the Beginner's Forum, because it is an easy "entry point" for a new climber to access the RC.com community. Asking some of those (embarrassingly "off") questions in a more "advanced" forum, would probably get them much harsher criticism that they receive in Beginner's......I think people tend to cut a little slack, knowing they are responding to someone who clearly states, by posting as a beginner, they don't know what they're doing.
That said, I think that those who "remind" us not to assume all info on the internet is accurate due a good service by posting that advice. It may give someone just enough impetus to think before acting on what they've read.
I also believe that the moderators could/would move a thread to the more advanced forums (gear, training, etc.) if they felt it was warranted.
There is no realistic mechanism that I can think of to stop people who think they know from spouting misinformation. And frankly, I get a bit of enjoyment (yes, I am a sick woman....) out of seeing those "know-it-alls" getting straightened out. It's good for our humility, when that happens.....
Finally, atanarjuat, I have to disagree with some of the stuff you posted. To say "the experts ....had right parents, places or friends - I can't see that as being true. While I am no expert (Actually....I am a beginner, and here I am, spouting like a know-it-all! Maybe I'll get busted down!), I am finding my way through to the community of climbers, locally as well as through the various websites dedictaed to the sport. No one who knows my situation would say I had 'the right parents.' I grew up in a place where there was no climbing, and now live in NYC....not a (real) rock mecca, though I suppose we do have some serious badass climbers here..... As a climber, where there are climbers, you will find friends, unless you are antisocial or have something about your personality that pushes people away.... I speak from experience, because it was utter torutre for me, putting myself out there at the start, and it is still that way, in some cases..... I forced myself to do it, and it was not easy, because I knew I had to, if i wanted to continue.
When I decided I wanted to continue in climbing, the first thing I did was buy a "how to" book. Was it Freedom of the Hills, or one of the John Long books? No, but it had what I needed to know, to have a general idea of what was going on. I learned the titles of the more widely known books right here, on RC, and ran out to get them.
Frankly, I do read a lot of the threads on some of these forums, but I am NEVER looking at them for real advice. Never. because....it is the interent. And it doesn't take much purusing of rc.com to see there are all kinds here. Plus, one of the first things I noticed about climbers, before I even started reading, was that naughty sense of humor......a "seemingly" straight answer that is SO very much not true.... It scared me, at first, but I think that it humbled me, knowing I was not going to be "getting the joke." It makes me keep my mouth shut (just a little, anyway) and listen.
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10ftdrp
Aug 5, 2004, 4:15 PM
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When I felt I needed to be posting in the beginners forum i got alot of bad advice but it was fairly easy to point it out because of several other people delcaring so. I'm pretty sure almost every thread i started there got a "go read this book" response or a "get proper instruction from someone that knows what they're doing" response. I find that advice very helpful. Keep the beginners forum.
~Luc
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rwaltermyer
Aug 5, 2004, 4:20 PM
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In reply to: Frankly, I do read a lot of the threads on some of these forums, but I am NEVER looking at them for real advice. Never. because....it is the interent.
But others do! (See atanarjuat's post! You shouldn't be turning to the internet to find answer's to 'those' questions! Its a scary reality that we must acknowledge.
Maybe we should close the climbing gyms that are breeding these "climbers".
Actually, though, I consider the beginner's forum a dangerous liability for rc.com. However, it is a arena for 'those' types of questions to be asked. And proper answers/directions given to them.
I just don't have the tolerance to spend time answering them.
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tim
Aug 5, 2004, 4:29 PM
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In reply to: I think more experienced climbers should spend more time in the Beginners Forum sharing their experience. Those who are experienced are usually easy to spot, and those who talk out the side of their neck are even easier to spot.
Unfortunately, what you think they should do, and what they are likely to do, are two very different propositions.
I believe that Greg and Dan have hit the nail on the head, and I support taking this to Phil. The difficulty you faced in creating an 'Ask the Experts' forum (anticipated remarkably well by Greg's comment above) illustrates why this would be a wise idea.
Improving search and using the already-improved FAQ, along with a larger corpus for the (already implemented) ability to auto-highlight FAQ's in the text of a message, would be a good alternative to the Beginners' Forum. Frankly, the entire site might as well be the Beginners' Forum for some users.
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tim
Aug 5, 2004, 4:32 PM
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In reply to: [ Actually, though, I consider the beginner's forum a dangerous liability for rc.com. However, it is a arena for 'those' types of questions to be asked. And proper answers/directions given to them. I just don't have the tolerance to spend time answering them.
This is why we should eliminate it. You're not even at a level of experience where you would qualify as an authority, and already you're burnt. In 10 or 20 years, when you've seen enough to be a veteran, will you feel any differently?
I doubt it...
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tim
Aug 5, 2004, 4:36 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: The trouble with rock climbing is that there's a prevailing insular attitude that if you don't already know something, you don't deserve to. I've found it very difficult to advance in the sport because I've had questions I didn't know how to get answered. The trouble you are having is called laziness. You type rock climbing into a Google search and this is the first thing that pops up. And you go no further. I'm trying to picture Warren Harding sitting by the Merced river crying because no one will tell him how to climb El Cap. If you want to advance in this sport, as you call it, you are going to have to show some initiative before anyone will help you with anything. You are sitting there in your high chair, bib on, mouth open, waiting for someone to spoon feed you. Not going to happen
Best post I've seen so far on the topic... what more needs to be said?
RRRadam's "should" assertion can be readily contrasted with your presentation of differing realities (eg. we all "should" push ourselves, "should" use the campus board, "should" lose some weight, and "should" redpoint 5.12 given an injury-free season...) to form a complete picture ;-)
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robmcc
Aug 5, 2004, 4:58 PM
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Beginners is also a lightning rod for n00bs. Part of its value is to concentrate those questions somewhere other than the other forums.
This is good. Sometimes I want to answer newbie questions, and sometimes I'm here for my own amusement and don't want to see 'em.
Keep it.
Rob
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soccer_fan
Aug 5, 2004, 5:05 PM
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Even if there is an unhealthy amount of bad advice given in the beginner forum; its a good catch for stuff that would get really old to read all the time in the other forums. There has also been a lot of quality info posted there as well.
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rwaltermyer
Aug 5, 2004, 5:10 PM
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so what I'm hearing as a "general" consensus is that if the beginner's forum is eliminated another means of collecting newbie/stupid/repetitive posts need to replace it. Allowing these to flush back into the other forums is not acceptable.
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curt
Aug 5, 2004, 5:57 PM
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An "Ask the Experts" forum might be a good idea, except for trying to figure out who the "Experts" are. Additionally, by stating that the responses posted are "expert," there may be a higher degree of potential liability assumed by RC.com by implimenting this. I suppose the liability issue could probably be addressed through a disclaimer, as someone else mentioned. After all, this is done all the time with guide books.
Curt
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